Fourth-class men (Conversations 1976 - 1977)

Expressions researched:
"fourth class" |"fourth-class"

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- May 1, 1976, Fiji:

Guru-kṛpā: If bhakti-yoga is the..., one can only understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga, why did Kṛṣṇa bother to explain karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga through so many...

Prabhupāda: Because there are third-class men, fourth-class men. They cannot understand bhakti-yoga immediately. But at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), if you are intelligent. Sarva-guhyatam. Real knowledge is here. Sarva-guhyatamam. But He's proposing at last, "If by understanding all other ways, if he has come to know what is the actual knowledge..." That is the most confidential knowledge. That is not for everyone. How one can give up karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga? They cannot. But Kṛṣṇa says, "This is the most confidential. If you accept this, then it is to be understood you have knowledge." It is not for everyone. Find out this verse. Sixty-three, Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So take these notes, take these books and preach. You have taken all, sannyāsa. You preach.

Morning Walk -- May 3, 1976, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: Why should you desire anything?

Guru-kṛpā: Then they say, "Why you desire to serve Kṛṣṇa?"

Prabhupāda: Huh? That is not desire. It is a natural. That is natural. Obedience to Kṛṣṇa, that is my natural business. Servant's business is always ready: "What can I do, sir?" This is not desire. This is natural position. He's not desiring anything. He's simply ready, "What can I do?" Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). That is, he's not desiring anything. Desire means when I want something for my satisfaction, that is desire. (break) ...mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. He's simply expecting what spiritual master will order. Citta. Āra nā koriho... He has no other desire. That is desirelessness. (break) Desireless means a wooden stone. It has no mind, how it can de.... But every living entity has got mind, so this is desirelessness, that "I'll wait for the order of my master and immediately execute." That is desirelessness. .... (break) stop functioning, then what is the meaning of guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya **? That means awaiting the order from the mouth of guru. Āra nā koriho mane. He has no other desires. That is to be under.... (break) Nirvāṇa, nirvāṇa means that you give up all material desires. Not that "But he did not say anything more than that." Because it was meant for the fourth-class men, so he did not say. He simply asked that you finish this material desire.

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: ...was as you say (indistinct).

Devotee (1): About the origin of the universe?

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (2): Chance theory.

Devotee (1): To prove that theory of chance.

Prabhupāda: And still they accept it?

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Devotee (2): There's no evidence, because you've explained many times that an orange always comes from an orange tree, a banana always comes from a banana tree, man always comes from man, and monkey always comes from monkey. We find that actually things are not happening by chance. That they're very much controlled.

Prabhupāda: There is. Nobody can deny it. Only this tenth-class man will deny it. Even third-class man, fourth class, he'll not deny. But what is that intelligence, one should make it a science. Intelligence there is no doubt about it.

Morning Walk -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: If you can purchase vote by paying money, then where is democracy?

Rāmeśvara: Just like one of their arguments is that these rich bankers, they can control how much money is being printed.

Prabhupāda: Yes, suppose I stand for presidency, and I take money from bank and bribe and get vote.

Rāmeśvara: So they can actually create, by their control, a depression.

Prabhupāda: Yes, money can buy. The real thing is money. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Money is the criterion in the Kali-yuga. If you have got money, then you don't require anything; you can purchase anything.

Rāmeśvara: Purchase justice.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. So therefore people are trying to get money somehow or other. Then he knows, "I get all power." The present struggle is everyone is trying to get more, more, more, more money. Because everyone knows if I get money then I.... (static) Just like the Beatles and others. Actually what they have got qualification? They have got money. (static) That's all. What qualification? Singer. Singer, according to Vedic culture, third-class, fourth-class man.

Morning Walk -- June 13, 1976, Detroit:

Hari-śauri: Many of the big parks in the big cities, they are full of thieves and all kinds of other people.

Prabhupāda: That means they cannot improve the condition of the people. Just like at the airport, everyone is checked. There is no gentlemen. Why everyone is checked? That means the whole mass of people, they're all rogues and thieves. Therefore it is necessary to keep an ideal, an ideal class of men brāhmaṇas. Then people will follow. But there is no such.... Everyone is coolie. That's all. Everyone is. They are making everyone coolie. Coolie civilization. One officer came to see me in Perth, Australia. So I told him, this is a civilization of fourth-class men. You remember?

Devotee (2): We heard the tape.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs)

Devotee (2): You said there must be an ideal class of men.

Prabhupāda: There is no ideal class of men. All fourth class, fifth class, tenth class.

Śrutakīrti: He accepted it also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you were present.

Śrutakīrti: Yes. At the finish he said, "Now I'm going back to my fourth-class friends."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): This man last night also, he admitted.

Prabhupāda: There is no first-class men. All fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class men. If one has got money, then he's all right. That is Kali-yuga. No qualification. But if you have got money, then it is all right. You are big man. Money's everything at the present moment. People, they are trying to accumulate money by all means. Never mind first class, second class, third class, bring money any way. Rather, if one does not drink, he's a third-class man. And if one drinks, he's first-class man. Civilized. In India, formerly, any gentleman comes, a glass of water or two sandeśa was given. Now that is rejected. If a gentleman is not offered a bag(?) of wine and some chicken, then it is not proper reception. (break) ...building?

Garden Conversation -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Jayādvaita: When we present the real idea, then they're just sitting there, they have no argument. And then we challenge their system, that "What is the purpose of your society? What is the goal of it?" and they can't say anything.

Prabhupāda: Unless there is division of activity, nothing can be done perfectly well. The natural division is there in the body—the head, the arms, the belly and the legs. Similarly, in the social body also there must be the heads, the intelligent class of men, brāhmaṇa. Then everything will go on smoothly. And, at the present moment, there is no intelligent class of men. All laborer, worker class of men, fourth class. No first class, second class. Therefore society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Scheverman: A child that is born handicapped, intellectually handicapped.

Kern: Cannot walk nor talk.

Prabhupāda: Well, that is another.... That is exceptional. Generally, anyone is born, according to Vedic civilization, everyone is born fourth class. When he takes his birth, it is to be accepted he's a fourth class. Now by training, you can make him first class, second class, third class. By birth, everyone is fourth class.

Kern: I saw a film of a leader of ours, Jean Vanye(?) from Canada and France. He took five thousand retarded.... In Spanish, we say (indistinct), to Rome just for the experience. And they were all in wheelchairs, old and young and small ones—not understanding very much, but a wonderful experience for them, the weak and the wounded.

Jayādvaita: (explaining to Prabhupāda) One priest took many handicapped people, who...

Prabhupāda: No, why you are speaking of handicapped? Who has taken the handicapped? Handicapped is handicapped.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Our program for them is also like this, to give them spiritual...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from that, we shall deal with the handicapped later on.

Kern: That's my, that's my...

Prabhupāda: First of all, we take the general people.

Kern: No, but you were saying that you speak, you are looking for the intelligent, the...

Prabhupāda: Not looking for. I am talking that anyone can be, I mean to say, elevated to the intellectual platform by training. Not the handicapped. Handicapped, there are special cases. That is another thing.

Kern: But...

Prabhupāda: Generally, everyone is born fourth class. Is to be understood. But by training such people you can make them division, first class, second class, third class.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Well, what? How you are dealing? You cannot. I told you that if your hand is cut, is it possible for me to add another hand in your body?

Kern: No, but...

Prabhupāda: Then you are unable. You have to accept it. But as far as possible we can give them help. That is not the question. Question is, those who are not handicapped, they are rotting without education, without enlightenment by keeping themselves as fourth-class, fifth-class men. Why not train them to become first-class men? That is the point. If one is blind, you cannot give him eyes. If one is lame, you cannot give him leg. That is beyond your ability. That is another thing; we shall deal with them later on. First of all, those who are born as human beings, why should you keep them as third-class, fourth-class men?

Kern: So this is a development. Saint Ignatius did the same, somewhat. When he began, he sought the leadership. And he sought the intelligent, so that they might do what.... Obviously, you do it also, seeking the leadership that can then teach. We call it sometimes elitism, and this is perhaps a good word for it.

Prabhupāda: So you find out the verse, satyaḥ śamo damas titikṣā, the qualification of brāhmaṇa. Here, it is meant, the first class, second class, third class, fourth class. Yes.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: This is first class. Again repeat that.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness."

Prabhupāda: So why they should not be educated to become first-class men on this basis?

Scheverman: That's right. I would agree that that is a worthy and very important goal.

Prabhupāda: So where is that institution who is teaching these things?

Kern: He said that the monastery did not teach this. I don't know if you can generalize about all monasteries.

Prabhupāda: I don't say monastery. I'm speaking that this is the way of training. Even a third-class born or fourth-class born could become a first-class man. This training should be given. There must be an institution how to become peaceful, how to become truthful, how to become honest, how to become religious, how to become believer in God. Why not this institution? They have opened institutions how to learn to deal the hammer, technology. But if, in the society, there is no first-class man on this basis, then who will guide? If there is no brain, then who will guide the hand or the leg?

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Scheverman: So your particular plan is then to provide this kind of enlightenment, this kind of direction and education, through the ascetical process in which your group is involved. Yes. We, of course, have made efforts along this line through our schools and through our religious communities that have been successful more or less depending on efforts given to it.

Prabhupāda: The second-class man is also described, who is the second class.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas," or the administrators.

Prabhupāda: This is second class. They are not first class, they are second class. First class is above mentioned.

Scheverman: The brāhmaṇa

Prabhupāda: Yes, then second class. Second class also required.

Scheverman: Also requires training, yes.

Prabhupāda: Suppose if there is war. So first-class men, they cannot go to fight; they are not trained up. But the second-class man who is trained up.... What is that quality?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Courage in battle."

Prabhupāda: Courage in battle. Now we have got report that in Vietnam battles, what happened?

Hari-śauri: Whenever they fight, most of the soldiers run away.

Prabhupāda: Run away. (laughter) He's fourth class. He has been placed in the second class. So how he'll do the...

Scheverman: Yeah, but we have a principle called "A man tends to rise to the level of his incompetence." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: These are the defects of the society at the present moment. A fourth-class, fifth-class man is on the first class or second class. Why Nixon had to be dragged down? He's a third-class man.

Scheverman: Third-class man.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter)

Scheverman: That's rather high on the ladder, I'd say, Your Excellency. (laughter)

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Scheverman: So I can see that this is probably an important element that appeals to most of the young people that come to you is this training that can be received in this particular way. I can also see too that somewhere..., I'd like to move into this area of religious experience.

Prabhupāda: I shall request that.... There is no question of Eastern, Western. Now people are intermingling. Now I think that we shall have institution, especially in America, to train these first class, second class, third class, and the balance fourth class. Who cannot take up any training, they are fourth class. So how they should be trained up, that indication is there. It is not the question of Eastern and Western. You become peaceful...

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote that on the bills, the monetary, on the coins or whatever, they put "In God We Trust," but actually no one understands. If you want to trust someone, then you have to know who that person is, you have to know that he's actually trustworthy. So he was asking that we could cooperate together, the American government and our movement, and we could train people practically how to trust God, like that. So Prabhupāda sent that letter. But that was a month ago, and there's still no reply.

Scheverman: To the Secretary of the Treasury? Is that it?

Devotees: The Secretary of the President.

Scheverman: The President, White House Secretary, his personal secretary.

Hari-śauri: So far, after one month, there's no reply.

Scheverman: Bureaucracy. We have lots of that. You may get a reply, and then again you may not. You'll get a reply, but it would be very general I presume, originally. It's a good idea.

Prabhupāda: No, I think that for the welfare of the whole human society.... America is opulent. They can start, that here is a college for training first-class men. Here is a college for training second-class men, and here is a college for third-class men, and balance fourth class. Fourth-class man doesn't require any training. They are simply to help the first class, second class, third class.

Kern: That would be difficult. (laughs)

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Scheverman: That is one of the difficulties we have in this country. Everybody wants to be first class.

Prabhupāda: What is difficulty? You do not like to train first-class men?

Scheverman: Everybody wants to be first class.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not train him? If I simply by imagination, that "I have become first class," will that do? Simply by imagination, I have become a medical man, will that do? You must have training.

Scheverman: So you say put him in a training program, and if he can make it, okay, and if he can't make it, then he'll be..., he goes as far as he can in training program.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that process we can help. Therefore how to become peaceful.

Kern: Are all the people here first class?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are training them at least.

Kern: We're training them for first class

Prabhupāda: To become first class. Because there is a great need of first-class men.

Scheverman: Indeed there is, indeed there is.

Kern: Do you have any in training for second class?

Prabhupāda: No, for the time being. (laughs) We have no means. Suppose.... Second class means he must be courageous to fight. So I have no means how to train them, you see? And without training, the second class, if you send him to the war, the experience is they will flee away. The many enemies coming, and they are going away.

Scheverman: Are you training people to become teachers in this school, this process of education?

Prabhupāda: Yes, as soon as you become. Without being first-class man, you cannot teach. A second-class, third-class, fourth-class man is not meant for teaching.

Scheverman: Where would you do this teaching?

Prabhupāda: Teaching everywhere, wherever there is possibility.

Morning Walk -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Jagadīśa: I remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was young I was brought up in the Catholic church, and I learned to fear God, and be afraid of God. But then as I went to high school, due to...

Prabhupāda: .... association, everything is bad(?). So degraded condition, there is no good association. Therefore I say that we require a first-class man section. A first-class.... All third class, fourth class. Even the so-called priests, they are also fourth-class, fifth-class men. Indulging in homosex.

Room Conversation -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Jagadīśa: Eighty percent of the people in the city are black.

Prabhupāda: And the white men, they are very much afraid of these black men. They have to be afraid.

Jagadīśa: They've taken over the city.

Prabhupāda: Without them, the factories cannot go on. That's all. The white men cannot work so hard. How they...? No gentleman can do that. This kind of work is meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. Therefore they cannot say anything. They require. And they know that their money will be taken away again by supplying them wine. They'll pay, and next moment, the wine merchant will take away. And the government will get huge profit without doing anything. And excise tax. Excise tax, government hasn't got to invest or do anything—simply take the tax.

Conversation in Airport and Car -- June 21, 1976, Toronto:

Kīrtanānanda: How to save them is very difficult.

Prabhupāda: Simply chant. This is the only. Give them chance to come and chant with us, take prasāda. Then after few days or few months, let them understand Bhagavad-gītā.

Devotee: We have all got this experience.

Prabhupāda: You have all got this experience. This is the only way. I started this movement on this determination, that they have nothing to give, simply by propaganda they are exacting so many people and befooling them. And I'll give them prasāda, nice chanting, and they will not come? They must come. This was my determination. And I began with this. So this is the only way. Give them chance "No talk, please come. Chant and dance with us and take kṛṣṇa-prasāda and go home."

Kīrtanānanda: I think it was just ten years ago when I first met you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I never said that "You have to give up this, you have to do this." Never said. Then gradually ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). When the heart becomes cleansed, then little. There is no hopelessness. So many people have come, and they are coming. Both black, white, everyone is coming. There is no question of (indistinct). But you cannot expect that cent percent people will come; that is not possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people come to this, then it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what percentage we have got? Still they have made some impression, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and do not make any compromise and push on—in this way, I have given you instruction, it will never stop; it will go on. It will never stop. At least for ten thousand years it will go on. That is your... (indistinct) And this movement is meant for these fourth-class, fifth-class, tenth-class men. Not this movement is fourth class, fifth class. They are so fallen that they cannot be counted even third class, fourth class-tenth-class of men. Deliver them. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's incarnation is for delivering these classes of men. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never meant to start this movement for high-class brāhmaṇas, sages, saintly persons—no. This class of men. For the all fallen. Don't be disappointed, go on, go on. Stick to the principles. When there was no response, I did not know where to live, where to eat. Sometimes at Dr. Mishra's, sometimes with some friend somewhere. Where to live. And I was going to inquire the shipping company when the next ship returning to India. Still I was renewing my visa: "Let us hope. Let us hope." In this way, we started Second Avenue in month of July, I think?

Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Agriculture is the noblest profession. Give him some land, he cuts the wood, makes cottages. The land is clear, now till it, keep cows and grow foodgrains.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Doesn't put any local men out of work.

Prabhupāda: Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Comfortably does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities, to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex—this is also bodily need—and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. (Bengali) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) (Bengali) (japa) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nations, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nations. First of all why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again ununited? Nation—this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama, everywhere. Not for any particular nation or any particular country, but everyone, according to quality-first-class men, second-class men, third-class men. That is there everywhere. Everywhere you go, you find some people first-class intelligent, some people less than him, some people less than him, up to fourth class, that's all. And then fifth class. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Now you try to implement. Perfect human life. Let any sociologist, politician come forward. We shall convince them that this is only way. Why you are wasting time and barking dog in the United Nations for the last forty years and doing nothing? What I said, barking dogs? You have read it? I accused them as barking dogs, Melbourne, and they published in the paper. Actually, this is the fact.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And what will be the benefit of classifying men according to their qualities?

Prabhupāda: Benefit will be then the whole thing will go in order. That is already described many times, that there must be brain, there must be arms, there must be belly, there must be legs for the complete composition of the body. If there is no brain, there is no head, then what is the use of these arms and legs and belly? It is all dead. So in the society, human society, if there is not a class of selected, truthful, honest, and so many brahminical qualifications, then society is ruined. Therefore they are perplexed. Everyone is a śūdra. Go to the factory. That's all. Go to the factory and bring money. And he is getting 25 dollars or 50 dollars daily and immediately purchasing wine and flat on Bowery Street. You'll produce such men, useless men, disturbing in the human society. You cannot make classless. If you make classless, naturally they will be all śūdras, fourth-class men. Then there will be society chaos.