Prabhupāda: The people do not know all these things. They have no idea. They have no idea, neither . . . even these things are there in the Vedic literature, they are not very much interested. And practically, in the darkness, they do not know what is next . . . I talked with Professor Kotovsky in Moscow. He, he is in charge of Indology. But that gentleman told me, "Swāmījī, after death there is nothing. Everything is finished." So I was surprised that such a learned man, and he has no idea of the transmigration of the soul. These are the defects of modern civilization. Those who are leaders, teachers, they are not sufficiently in knowledge.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I think, in Western countries now, people are very much afraid of death. It's . . .
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Especially in America, people are very much afraid of . . . they won't even mention or think about death, which is a great weakness. One should be able to think about death.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is . . . that is natural. That is natural. Suppose if, after my death, I am going to become something lower than my present position, certainly I must be afraid of it.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Suppose if somebody gives me . . . this is a fact. Recently one astrologer has said that one of the biggest politician in India, he has now become a dog in Sweden. May be correct or not, but there is possibility. There is possibility.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Because from the śāstra we understand, karmāṇa, by work, one has to . . . Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). By prakṛti, by nature, as we make . . . just like if we eat little more, so by the laws of nature, immediately there is indigestion.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot deny this adjustment. So why not . . .? I am sufferer of my karma. So according to my karma, I get a body . . .
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: . . . suffering or enjoyment. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ, bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā . . . (BG 9.25). Who goes where—that is stated here. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ (BG 14.18). Everything is there. We can understand. We can understand where we are going. So one who is going to a higher level of life—and the most perfection of life is go back to home, back go Godhead—he's not afraid of death.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Sādhu maro vā jīva vā. It is said, for a sādhu, saintly person, either he lives or dies, he has the same position: back to home, back to Godhead.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: karma can be changed for better or for worse.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: karma can be changed by bhakti. Otherwise, cannot be.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. In each life.
Prabhupāda: By bhakti. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājam (Bs. 5.54). That is stated in the śāstras. The karma can be counteracted only by bhakti-bhājam, devotional service. Otherwise it is not. Therefore our duty is only to endeavor for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not to bother with other things, economic development. Because they are under the karma laws.
So whatever happiness and distress under karma I am destined to suffer or enjoy, that will come automatically. So you haven't got to try for it. But if you . . . if we do not try for development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we are wasting time. So far our other things are concerned, that will come and go according to karma.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. But not many people . . .
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Not many people in Western countries are thinking about this now.
Prabhupāda: That's not very good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupāda: That's not good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No.
Prabhupāda: That means it proves less intelligence.