It is useless to give such a person good instruction for gentle behavior and a peaceful life; on the contrary, one should search out the ways and means to punish him.” Generally, due to material opulence a man becomes exactly like an animal. To give an animal peaceful instructions is useless, and the only means is argumentum ad baculum. In other words, the only means to keep animals in order is a stick. “Just see how impudent are the members of the Kuru dynasty! I wanted to make a peaceful settlement despite the anger of all the other members of the Yadu dynasty, including Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself. They were preparing to attack the whole kingdom of the Kuru dynasty, but I pacified them and took the trouble to come here to settle the affair without any fighting. Yet these rascals behave like this! It is clear that they do not want a peaceful settlement, for they are factually warmongers. With great pride they have repeatedly insulted Me by calling the Yadu dynasty ill names.
Argumentum ad baculum
Expressions researched:
"Argumentum baculam"
|"argumentum ad baculum"
|"argumentum baculum"
|"argumentum vaculam"
|"argumentum vaculum"
|"baculam"
Srimad-Bhagavatam
SB Canto 4
Another feature of this word is that persons who are simply attached to the ritualistic portion of the Vedas and do not understand the situation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are not any more advanced than animals. In the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is confirmed that even though one performs the rituals of the Vedas, if he does not develop a sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all his labor in performing Vedic rituals is considered to be simply a waste of time. Lord Śiva's aim in destroying the Dakṣa yajña was to punish Dakṣa because by neglecting him (Lord Śiva), Dakṣa was committing a great offense. Lord Śiva's punishment was just like that of a cowherd boy, who keeps a stick to frighten his animals. It is commonly said that to give protection to animals, a stick is needed because animals cannot reason and argue. Their reasoning and argument is argumentum ad baculum; unless there is a rod, they do not obey. Force is required for the animalistic class of men, whereas those who are advanced are convinced by reasons, arguments and scriptural authority. Persons who are simply attached to Vedic rituals, without further advancement of devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are almost like animals, and Lord Śiva is in charge of giving them protection and sometimes punishing them, as he punished Dakṣa.
SB Canto 7
In political affairs, when a person disobediently agitates against the government, four principles are used to suppress him—legal orders, pacification, the offer of a post, or, finally, weapons. When there are no other arguments, he is punished. In logic, this is called argumentum ad baculum. When the two seminal brāhmaṇas Ṣaṇḍa and Amarka failed to extract from Prahlāda Mahārāja the cause for his having opinions different from those of his father, they called for a stick with which to chastise him to satisfy their master, Hiraṇyakaśipu. Because Prahlāda had become a devotee, they considered him to be contaminated by bad intelligence and to be the worst descendant in the family of demons. As it is said, where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise. In a society or family in which everyone is a demon, for someone to become a Vaiṣṇava is certainly folly. Thus Prahlāda Mahārāja was charged with bad intelligence because he was among demons, including his teachers, who were supposedly brāhmaṇas.
If the citizen is not pacified, the king should then offer him some lucrative post as a governor or minister-any post that draws a high salary—so that he may be agreeable. If the enemy still goes on agitating the public, the king should try to create dissension in the enemy's camp, but if he still continues, the king should employ argumentum ad baculum—severe punishment—by putting him in jail or placing him before a firing squad. The teachers appointed by Hiraṇyakaśipu taught Prahlāda Mahārāja how to be a diplomat so that he could rule over the citizens very nicely.
Other Books by Srila Prabhupada
Krsna, The Supreme Personality of Godhead
Lectures
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
The speciality of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu was that He used to put very sound arguments, and He used to defeat His opponents in such a way that they were satisfied. They were not inimical. And with the evidence of śāstra. Not that argumentum vaculum. He was putting reasonable arguments and evidences from śāstra, scripture. Sarva-śāstra khaṇḍi' prabhu bhakti kare sāra. And the beauty was that He was defeating all other arguments against devotional service. He was establishing only that God is great, and we are meant for serving Him. On this basis He was arguing and He was defeating others.
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: Because he is rude. He cannot have that there may be, amongst the sober gentlemen, the gun is reasoning. And for the crude rascals argumentum vaculam. Of course, the gun reason is sometimes needed when the other party is completely animal. But if both of them are animals, then what further decision can come? You see? Therefore our conclusion is taken from śāstra. The gun is used also in terms of śāstra. Just like Kṛṣṇa first of all wanted to settle up the fight, the opposing elements, the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas. He personally became a messenger and personally requested Duryodhana that "All right. Settle up things. They are kṣatriyas. They cannot take up the business of a brāhmaṇa or a vaiśya. Give them five villages, let them rule, and they will be satisfied." But he said, "Oh, what to speak of five villages, I cannot spare the, that small portion of land which can hold the tip of a needle." Then Kṛṣṇa said, "Yes. Then you do not come to reason? Then let us turn to weapon." So this śāstra and śastra. When śāstra fails, then according to śāstra, there is śastra. Śastra means weapon. Both of them come from the śas-dhātu. Śas-dhātu, from śas-dhātu we take śāstra, śastra, śāsana, śiṣya, like that. It is coming from the same root.
Śyāmasundara: What is that root?
Conversations and Morning Walks
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Ah, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam. (break) ...is correct. We can face any so-called philosopher, any. Any so-called scientist. Any so-called politicians. You must be strong enough to have your firm conviction, that "We can face anyone rascal and defeat him." (break) ...and logic, argumentum vaculum. You know that? In logic there is a thesis or argumentum vaculum. Means no argument, but with stick and gun, you see. "If you don't believe, then here is stick and gun." That is called argumentum vaculum. So we have to make our position so strong that anyone who does not believe in God, he should be finished.
Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... (break) ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Logic, there is no logic.
Guest: No, but what I say. If they are appeased...
Prabhupāda: Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword.
Guest: No, but what I say... The basic problem is that if the center is against, if the (indistinct) man, is against...
Prabhupāda: That I know that they are against.
Guest: If the (indistinct) men is against, therefore they are disclosing their weakness.
Prabhupāda: And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that... Many politicians have said. In London, the high commissioner, he said, "Swamiji, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharastrian Pant. Pant. So... But we cannot do anything of this way.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This is the... This is the process. So this is the process. So now, when he will say, "All right, you can say what you want to say," then, he sādhava: "You are a great personality, nobleman." He may be a loafer class, (laughter) but give him all honor: "You are so great and so exalted," he sādhava, "and so honest." He sādhava. "My only submission is that whatever you have learned, you forget. Whatever nonsense you have learned..." Don't say "nonsense." (laughter) But we must know that he is a pakkā, rascal, nonsense. (laughs) So don't say directly, "nonsense." Say, "You are the great personality. So kindly, whatever you have learned, forget." "Then what shall I do?" He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya durāt: "Kick out whatever you nonsense learned." "Then what shall I do?" Now, caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam: "Kindly be submissive to Lord Caitanya, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is our program. No argument. Because he is a rascal, what is the use of arguing with him? He's a rascal number one. You know that. You cannot expect any good argument from the rascals and fools. Where is the logic? Their logic is to beat them with shoes. That is the only logic. But that, if you do that, then you'll not be able to preach. But otherwise that is the only logic, to beat them with shoes. Argumentum vaculum. You know this logic? In logic we have read. There is one logic, argumentum... You know this?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You know? What is that? Argumentum vaculum? Hm? With fools and rascals, with animals, there is no logic. Take the stick and beat them. The dog, if he is a dog, what is the argument with him? Take the stick and beat him; then he will go away. That is called argumentum baculum. That is, Sanskrit logic, also said, murkhasya laṭau śādhi (?) "One who is a fool, his only remedy is beating him with stick." This is material. But we are not doing anything material. It is all spiritual. Therefore, especially in this age, Caitanya Mahāprabhu,
- tṛṇād api sunīcena
- taror api sahiṣṇunā
- amāninā mānadena
- kīrtanīyaḥ (sadā hariḥ)
- (CC Adi 17.31)
So we should preach like this, any rascal, because anyone who has no information of Kṛṣṇa, who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a rascal. That's all. That we must know. That is definite. There is no mistaking it. But if you say that "You are rascal. There is no mistaking it," then you cannot preach. If you directly call a rascal a rascal, he'll be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta...: To give good instruction to a fool rascal will increase his anger, that's all."
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Vedic knowledge is like that. You receive any type of knowledge you want to get. That is called Veda. Veda means knowledge. Knowledge means of anything. That is knowledge. So everything is there. You'll find social, political.... This fighting is political. So in politics sometimes war is necessary. You cannot avoid it when there is politics. That is the whole history, and politics are never settled up without war. There is no history. When you come to the political platform, war is necessary. In logic it is called argumentum vaculum, that when a man is not accepting reasoning, then there must be stick. It is like that. When there are two parties—there is some disagreement—so one is not reasonable, then there must be stick. That is war. Just like animal. The animal cannot understand reasoning, so you have to take the stick. Then the animal will agree. If a dog entering room, you don't want him in, so you say, "Dog, don't enter." He'll not hear. And if you show a stick, it will go away. So for the dogs, for the animals, stick is required. That is war. And there is logic. You know this, argumentum vaculum. In logic there is. So when logic fails, you have to take to war. Not whimsically. You try to avoid war. And when the other party does not agree to logic, then there must be fight. So that is also necessary because all men are not abiding by logic.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of śāstra; it is śastra only. When there is no śāstra there must be śastra. Argumentum baculum. When there is no logic, give him whip, that's all. So all these, they are awaiting whipping. They are being whipped. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).
Devotee (2): How can we make them understand they're being punished?
Prabhupāda: You can understand, provided you have got the sense. If you are nonsense, you cannot understand. You cannot understand means you are nonsense. That is the difference between sense and nonsense. That I have already given, the example: the same whip, to the animal it is not suffering, but for a man, simply by seeing it is suffering. It is the question of sense. That is the difference between man and animal. The animal cannot understand that he is suffering. Man can understand. That is difference. If you do not understand, then you are animal. Now, here it is clearly said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is unhappiness. And if you think, "Oh, what is there, unhappiness in dying?" then you are animal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, they are, for them the argumentum ad baculum. You know argumentum ad baculum? You know? What is that.
Harikeśa: That's the fourth stage in diplomatic tactics, where you hit them with a stick.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: For example...
Prabhupāda: For them, argumentum ad baculum. Sanskrit is mūrkhasya laktosadi(?). Just like animal. Animal, if you give argument, no. When you show stick and beat him, then he'll, he'll be... Argumentum ad baculum for them.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: In Iran most people accept all our philosophy fully, but they are not willing to accept authority from Kṛṣṇa because they say, well, why is... They cannot be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead, Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is medicine; there is beating with shoes. That is going on. Mūrkhasya laktansadhiḥ,(?) argumentum baculum. You cannot mildly speak to the animals, "My dear cow, my dear dog, please do not bark. Do not go this way." No, you require lāṭhi, stick, and they will behave. Can you stop dog's barking by simply request? But you take the stick and beat it, and he will stop. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ.(?) So there is no king. There is no kṣatriya. Therefore these rascals are talking all nonsense. There is no śāsana. This is king's duty, to see that they are acting according to śāstra. But there is no such king. So everyone is acting whimsically, whatever he likes, and the so-called swamis are preaching, "No, no, whatever you like, that's all right. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever you like. You think yourself that you are God. That's all right." This is going on. By thinking himself that he's God, he becomes God. This is going on, so many meditations: "I am moving the sun, I am moving the Moon, I am moving... mo mo mo mo." (laughter) And rascals are following them.
Guest: They do not know the process of God.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, we should beat them. If somebody, atatayi...(?) You unnecessarily attack me; I must first kill you. That is my duty. Just like you have done here, Setterji. "I'll bring my revolver." So that is argumentum baculum. Here they wanted to put us into trouble, and he was in great trouble. So he came, he stood: "All right, come on. We shall fight. Bring my revolver." He did that. So we have to do like that. Why shall I tolerate unnecessary injustice. Take that spirit. And in meantime apply. That is the solution. Why shall I spend for them? And unless they arrange for the sewer lines, we're not going to pay tax.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's our position.
Prabhupāda: Let us go on, one court after another, one court after... If there is fight, we must be prepared to fight. (Hindi) If required, take Setterji. He'll help.
Prabhupāda: That "You accept that it is done by scissor." So he said, "No, I won't tolerate." Then he pushed him in the water. Then he was doing like this. (laughter) Scissor logic.
Bhāgavata: Argumentum vaculam.
Prabhupāda: That was used. He was put in the water. "Either you accept or I shall push you in the water." "No, I'll not accept." (laughter) So these rascals are like that. They are failure. They cannot. Still, they'll do, (laughter) the so-called scientists.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have an international society for doing that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They must combine. Otherwise there is no place for them. As soon as they accept that there is something beyond physical, then they'll have to accept God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like when we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, then they're very amused.
Prabhupāda: That is...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "What is it? If it is nonphysical nonchemical, then what it is?" They inquire.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Yes, insult. The animals should be kicked with shoes and stick. Argumentum baculum. There is no argument for animals. Kick and stick. Beat him. That is the way of dealing with animal. You cannot request an animal very... "My dear dog, please do not bark. Sit down." Simply kick and give him stick. That is good. They're animals. Gentle behavior with gentleman, not with the animal. "You are so big, big animal, you are simply to be kicked and whipped. Then you'll come to your senses." Religion. Religion is farce. First of all explain why you cannot do this machine. You are very proud of machine-making, artificial. "Why artificial intelligence? Why not real intelligence?" Intelligence also material. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhiḥ (BG 7.4). The buddhi. It is material, subtle form of material energy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It is coming," they'll say. "In the future."
Prabhupāda: Again "coming." "In future." You are misled by these rascal words. Even if you do in future, what credit is there? It is already there. Why I shall wait for the future? It is already there. If some... We are sannyāsīs, begging, so if you go to somebody—he says, "Yes, I'll pay you one hundred rupees in future. I am trying to get the money"—shall you wait for that?
| Page Title: | Argumentum ad baculum |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 31 of Jul, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=3, CC=0, OB=1, Lec=2, Con=12, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 18 |