Dr. Patel: They, sir, I have, after we met..., first I met you, some previous time, I made an extensive study of both the sides of Vaiṣṇavism as well as the same conclusion. I think they are falling short of the final (indistinct). Once they say that they are in Brahman, they are final. But there is Para-brahman also. That Brahman is nothing but a jyoti of Para-brahman. That they forget.
Prabhupāda: That means knowledge.
Dr. Patel: And I think, sir, even then Śaṅkarācārya has not meant that we must be short of that. He was also worshiping, was he not? He was worshiping Para-brahman.
Prabhupāda: He has given a commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning he says nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ, "Nārāyaṇa is transcendental."
Dr. Patel: But these fellows are misinterpreting him later on.
Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. The whole world is full of demons. And they are demons. Who declare himself "I am God," he's a demon.
Dr. Patel: Only one who has actually realized Para-brahman and becomes the real bhakta of Brahman, he has got a right to say Brahma... Unless he becomes brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20).
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
- (BG 18.54)
Then he becomes brahma-bhūta. Otherwise he cannot become. (indistinct Sanskrit) Brahma-bhūta is the first stage. This they consider the final. I mean, that is my understanding. I don't know; I may be right or wrong. But I want to (be) corrected by you.
Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūta... Jīva-bhūta, everyone is thinking, "I am this body." That is jīva-bhūta. And when (he) understands that "I'm not body; I'm within the body," that is brahma-bhūta.
Dr. Patel: That is ādya. (indistinct) Perpetually Brahman.
Prabhupāda: No. This is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this point, that "Why you are thinking that you are one of the family members? This is bodily concept."
Dr. Patel: First and second and (indistinct) this, that nobody is your relative, and, I mean, all of body dies, but the soul can never die. This is the body. Body has no value. Lot of mosquitoes, you know? On your side (indistinct).