Shahrezad: So why we are so involved in the material world that most of the human being don't have...
Prabhupāda: They are being misled by misleaders, that is the difficulty.
Shahrezad: Yes, but why, God, why they don't see, we don't see?
Prabhupāda: They see they are suffering, but they have no eyes to see. They are being slapped both ways and kicked with shoes, but they have no eyes to see. Going on. So much trouble, so many problems, that you cannot drive even on the street. We wanted to see some house; because the street is so congested, we had to wait three days. And still I am thinking that I am making progress. This is rascal.
Shahrezad: Yes, that's right, but...
Prabhupāda: Not yes. First of all understand your rascaldom. You have created such a situation that to go to a place two miles away from my place, I have to wait for three days. And we are taking it as progress. This is rascaldom. But what is inconvenient, we are taking it as progress. To go to a place two miles away, it takes ten minutes or, say, twenty minutes. Now we have to wait two days. And we are taking it as progress. This is called māyā. Māyā means what is not. It is not progress, but we are taking as progress. Degrees we are taking as progress. This is called māyā. Hm? What do you say, Nandarāṇī?
Nandarāṇī: I think her question is, is this God's plan or our plan?
Prabhupāda: It is not God's plan, it is your plan. Whatever you make, it will cause inconvenience. And if you follow God's plan, you'll make progress. Where is in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said by Kṛṣṇa that you make motorcars like this? He has never said.
Hari-śauri: They get a bit confused because God has to... Like that man last night was saying not even a blade of grass can move without God's sanction. So they think because God sanctions...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is so many times explained. Just like a child wants to do something. The father says, "Don't do it," I have said several times. Reluctantly, "All right, do it." I have given this example of my practical experience in 1925 or '26 when my son was two years old. There was a table fan, "I would like to touch it." And I said, "No, no, don't touch." This is child. So but it's a child. He again tried to touch it. So there was a friend, he said, "Just slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it, slowed the speed and he touched-tung! Then he would not touch. You see. So this sanction was given, "Touch it," reluctantly. Now when he gets experience and I ask him, "Touch again?" "No." So this sanction. All of us who have come to this material world, it is like that. Reluctantly. Therefore God comes again to inform these rascals that "Now you have tried so much, better give up this, come to Me again." Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Sanction was given, certainly, and he has experience, very bitter, but still he won't... This is obstinacy. Dog's mentality. The father has come personally. Now we have experimented everything—karma, jñāna, yoga, this, that, all nonsense. "Now I say..." It is said most confidential. Sarva-guhyatamam. "Better give up this job. Surrender to Me, come back to Me." So sanction was there, certainly. Without sanction they cannot do it. God created this. That is sanction. You wanted material world to enjoy. "All right, do it, here is material world. Take as much petrol as you like and drive motorcar and create accident, do, go on. But now I am giving you good advice, that give up this business, come back to Me." This is sanction. Reluctant, the same example. I did not like that child to touch the fan, but he would insist. "All right, make an experiment." And when he got the experience, next time, ask him, "Now do it?" "No." This is going on. The sanction, without sanction there is no possibility. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam—that is mattaḥ, "from Me." But he's insisting, so therefore sanction—"All right, let him experiment." That independence God never touches. So he has got independence. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). So he is creating problem. Still, Kṛṣṇa coming, that "You have created simply problems. What you have gained? Better give up this all nonsense, come to Me." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Those who are intelligent, they are taking up. And those who are still remaining rascal, they are going on. That is our choice, if we want to be intelligent or rascal. Practically. What we have gained by this so-called material advancement? They have created problem, different problems. That's all. But still, we think that it is progress. And this is going on. Without God's sanction you cannot do anything, that's a fact. But what kind of sanction it is, that you have to understand. God is creator, God is giving sanction, everything is God. Otherwise how He is God? But He has to do. There is a story like that, that the thief is praying to God, "My Lord, give me the chance I can make some stealing in that house." And the householder also praying to God, "My Lord, please save my house, my things may not be stolen." Now God has to adjust, God has to please the thief and the householder. And both of them are prayers. So God has so intelligence, He can do that. He can give the sanction to the thief and He can give protection to the householder. That is God's position. Because both of them prayers, praying, "Give me the facility." And īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). And He is situated in everyone's heart and there are so many petitions, and He has to deal with them. That is God. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Hari-śauri: But sometimes things happen people don't want to happen.
Prabhupāda: That is their business. They want or they don't want, that's all. Two business. Because their mind is not fixed up, they have got two businesses—"don't do it," "do it." That's all. There is no third business. Two things—"do it," "don't do it." That's all. Sometimes accepting—"Do it"—and again rejecting, "No, no, don't do it." This is material world. "Do it" and "don't do it." And things are becoming implicated. Saṅkalpa-vikalpa. So he has to fix up his mind. "I have :done so much 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Now I shall decide to do only what Kṛṣṇa says." Then his life is perfect. "I shall give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' But I'll simply do what Kṛṣṇa says." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "Yes, now I'll do it. What You say, I'll do it." Then his life is perfect. Otherwise he'll continue, "don't do it," "do it," "don't do it," "do it," that's all. And Kṛṣṇa will give him sanction—"do it" and "don't do it." Unless he comes to the original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa has to give him sanction, "Yes, do it." "Yes, do not do it." What can be done? But He says, "Give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Simply do what I say. Then you'll be happy." Unless we agree to that point, we have to continue this material life, life after life, and suffer. Material body means suffering. Either you get human body or animal body or tree body or any body, suffers.
- na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
- asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
- parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto
- yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam
So long one does not inquire about his spiritual position, he'll have to accept this material body and suffer. This is the law of nature. So therefore our business is how to stop accepting this material body. That is the, our... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. How to stop accepting this material body. So that is bhakti. Karma, jñāna, yoga, you'll have to accept material body. Maybe better body you may have. But better or bad, worse, whatever body you accept, you have to suffer.
Nandarāṇī: This saṅkalpa-vikalpa is there as long as we have our independence, though. Even as devotees, that accepting and rejecting? That is there even in devotees.
Prabhupāda: A devotee, because a nondevotee has become a devotee, he is practicing how to simply accept Kṛṣṇa's orders. But by his previous habit he's still engaged in "do it" and "don't do it." That is his previous habit. Just like this fan is running. You take out the switch, the current is stopped, but it's still running, at least three, four rounds. So similarly, if you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your, that current of "do it" or "do not," is stopped. Because you have agreed to do only what Kṛṣṇa says. If you have actually decided like that, then you are free. There is no more current of "do it" or "not do it." But because you were habituated in your past life to this "do it" or "not do it," sometimes it is found. But that is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,
- api cet sudurācāro
- bhajate mām ananya-bhāk
- sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ
- samyag vyavasito hi saḥ
- (BG 9.30)
He has got little practice of these nonsense things. But if he sticks to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be stopped very soon. That is the only remedy. So a devotee means he has taken vow before the spiritual master, before the fire, before... If he sticks to his principle, then he's free. Even though some bad habits found due to his past behavior. That will be stopped. But he must stick. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. That must stick. Kṛṣṇa consciousness must continue. Everything will be corrected. And if there is slackness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then again he'll fall down. That I was telling this morning, that if you have determination, māyā will put forward so many impediments, and with all sufferings, if he remains determined in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is success. A man is habituated to smoke. He has given up, has promised no more smoking. Just like our students. Now he's put amongst some friends, they are smoking. But he has bad habit, he's thinking, "Why not smoke?" And if the friends offer, "It is friends. Who is going to see, your spiritual master." "Yes." That is possible. But if he comes to his sense again, "Oh, what I have done?" If he repents, "I promised it before my spiritual master, before God, before fire. Now I'm doing this?" that repentance will help him. And if he thinks that "I'm doing it. My spiritual master is not here, let me fall to it," then he is finished. Then he is finished. If he repents for the wrong he has done, then he's excused. Otherwise finished.
Hari-śauri: Is there any limit to the number of chances that he has?
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is limit. Once, twice, thrice. If you make four times, then it is extricated: "Get out rascal, cheating."
Ātreya Ṛṣi: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, aren't there fallen sinful people who are still...
Prabhupāda: Amongst fallen, sinful people, if you want to remain fallen, sinful, then who can help you? It is up to you. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And if you want to remain fallen, "No, I'll do it, go on," you remain. What is objection of Kṛṣṇa? Go on. You are suffering, go on suffering. I give you this suggestion, you do it. If you do it, you become free. But if you want to continue, continue, it is your business. Go on suffering. Why you make Kṛṣṇa responsible? You are responsible for your own activities.
Nava-yauvana: You say if someone has no shame...
Prabhupāda: Yes, shameless. Dukankata,(?) in Bengal it is called. So if you want to continue, then continue. The facility is already given there. The material world is there. You go on, continue. But if you want to stop it, if you are conscious of the material position, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), then you have to stop it. Kṛṣṇa has given you freedom, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Whatever you like, you can do. If you like to suffer, go on suffering. Who can...? It is your business.
Nava-yauvana: But unless one is getting Kṛṣṇa's instruction, he is forced to go on.
Prabhupāda: Yes, māyā is there. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī (BG 7.14). You cannot do anything without knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is there, māyā is there. They'll take care. Kṛṣṇa's agent māyā will take care of you. You have to be taken care, either by māyā or by Kṛṣṇa. If you agree to be taken care by Kṛṣṇa, then you are happy. And if you don't agree, you will be taken care by māyā. You go on suffering. In either case you are not independent. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). That verse is very important-yathecchasi tathā kuru. Find out that verse. It is the last part. Yesterday you found.
Hari-śauri: Oh, I know which one it is. The one about "Now do as you wish."
Prabhupāda: That liberty is always there.