Prabhupāda: Newton was a rascal. He made two holes in the door. And one friend came, "Why you have made these two holes in your door?" He said: "There are two cats, bigger and the smaller. So let them go out." So he asked, "With the bigger hole, the smaller cannot go?" "Yes, yes. You are right." (laughter) Any conditioned soul, he may be Newton or this or that, they are all rascals.
Dr. Patel: No, but some of the highest, I mean . . .
Prabhupāda: No, nobody is highest. Because everyone, everyone is in ignorance.
Dr. Patel: Ignorance is right, but . . .
Prabhupāda: Therefore rascals.
Dr. Patel: Though their knowledge is ignorance, it is that. Brahman knowledge is right.
Prabhupāda: So therefore you have to . . . therefore the indication is tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā . . . (BG 4.34). You should go and take knowledge.
Dr. Patel: But I talk of the Einstein. Einstein, somebody asked Einstein . . .
Prabhupāda: Anyone . . .
Dr. Patel: . . . "Do you believe in God?" He said: "How can you not believe in God? God is everywhere, and I feel the presence of it." That is the real scientist.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Not the other fellows who say there is no God and all these things are atoms and all . . .
Prabhupāda: But still, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God.
Dr. Patel: That is . . . that is . . .
Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. That is ignorance.
Dr. Patel: . . . ignorance of God. That means there will be a quarrel between us two.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is ignorance. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15).
Dr. Patel: Sir . . .
Prabhupāda: As soon as he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he is ignorant. Therefore it will take time. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). When actually he becomes a man in knowledge, then he surrenders. So, so long one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's a fool. And that is our definition. Now, Mr. Sar, I am right or wrong?
Mr. Sar: You are right, sir. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Now, even though you may not be right, he will say right because he's very much frightened of your calling him a . . . what do you call me?
Prabhupāda: A mūḍha. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Well, I'm a vagabond type of man, thick-skinned. You may call me anything, I don't mind. You see? (Prabhupāda laughs)
Indian man (1): After all, the views, you see. Everybody is right in his own views. You see? You cannot challenge . . . after all, the views are given by the God. The jñāna-śakti's from God, from the Almighty, and not yourself. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . if you are right, Kṛṣṇa said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ.
Indian man (1): Ah, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15).
Prabhupāda: So why, why Kṛṣṇa gives you less knowledge and others more knowledge? Why?
Indian man (1): Because . . .
Prabhupāda: Is Kṛṣṇa partial?
Indian man (1): No. As long as you're more conscious, then He gives you more knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . Because, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). Because the surrender is not full, therefore he's also not fully realized.
Indian man (1): He's not fully . . . correct.
Prabhupāda: That is the point.
Indian man (1): That's correct.
Prabhupāda: Ye yathā mām . . . that very word, prapadyante. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. So if your surrender is twenty-five percent, then Kṛṣṇa is realized twenty-five percent. If your surrender is cent percent, then Kṛṣṇa is realized cent percent.
Dr. Patel: Can I say the same yathā and tathā, "The way he surrenders, the way I give . . ."
Prabhupāda: That means proportionate.
Dr. Patel: Why proportionate? Why not other way? The way I surrender in the lower knowledge of science is, well, He has given me the knowledge of science.
Prabhupāda: Just like . . .
Dr. Patel: They have given you the knowledge, the higher knowledge of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa is Paramātmā, Brahman and Bhagavān. So if you surrender to Brahman, so you realize Brahman. If you surrender Paramātmā, you realize Paramātmā, and if you surrender to Bhagavān, you realize Bhagavān.