Prabhupāda: At the present moment even the ministers are in trouble.
Director: Yes, but that is not what our function is. Everybody's in trouble. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: "Physician, heal thyself." You see? They are also drunkards, they are also woman-hunters, meat-eaters and gambling, that's all. They require to be rectified.
Director: But you can't help that. That society. . . You have to go and change society, then society tells us to act differently.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless you change the society, how you can make social welfare? If you keep them as it is, then where is the question of welfare?
Director: Give it a different interpretation to the word.
Prabhupāda: Inter. . . How the. . .? I don't. . .
Director: Does he understand me?
Prabhupāda: Basically, basically one must be first-class ideal man. That is wanted.
Director: That's why it's so very difficult. You have to work on your own, and you have to see that you're fit for the work. If you can convince enough people to. . .
Prabhupāda: No, no. Our own program, it is not vox populi. You find out fault with us.
Director: What?
Prabhupāda: You find out what is our fault.
Director: I don't say any fault.
Prabhupāda: Then you can disagree. But when you see everything is nice, how you will not accept it? Unless you are biased.
Director: Of course I'm biased. I've been brought up differently.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our. . .
Director: Just as you're biased against my life.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not biased. Just like. . . We are not biased. We are allowing. We say that if you want to be first-class man, then you must not commit sinful activities. That is our propaganda.
Director: But I, as a public servant, I'm not here to change society.
Prabhupāda: But we are also public. We belong to the public. You must become our servant also.
Director: Yes. What?
Prabhupāda: We are public, members of the public. So you should become our servant also, if you are public servant. (laughter)
Director: A public servant is, in our philosophy, is a man who serves a minister elected by the people, and this way he serves the public. And what the public decides, he acts accordingly.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we are reforming the public.
Director: Yes, that's what I mean.
Prabhupāda: They select a man. . .
Director: When you reform the public, then you cannot act differently.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the public select a president, Nixon, and they became disturbed, again drag him down. This is going on.
Director: Yes, but that is how society works. You must want society to change, and we have to change. I just do what I'm asked to do. Otherwise I lose my job.
Prabhupāda: No, if you actually want to do some social welfare, then you must take this standard formula. And if you manufacture your own way, that will never be successful.
Director: I might agree with you that if all of us will be Kṛṣṇa. . .
Prabhupāda: Not whole. We don't. . .
Director: Then we would be. . . then social welfare would mean something different.
Prabhupāda: Now, just like we are proposing here. I am not proposing—Kṛṣṇa says—that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful? If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful?
Director: You're quite right.
Prabhupāda: So that is the secret of success. You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful. So therefore you have to adopt this. . .
Director: Yes, you have a competitive society.
Prabhupāda: We say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably, and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed. If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles, that let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful.
Director: What's your answer that such a small percentage of the population, tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that. . .
Prabhupāda: No. Tiny percentage. . . Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon. In percentage the moon is nothing. If we take percentage of the stars, the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars. (laughter) But if you take percentage, he has no percentage vote. But because he is moon, he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example. What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon? Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage. One ideal man. Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ.
Director: How do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?
Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?
Amogha: He says how do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?
Director: In China he's the ideal man.
Amogha: He's a Communist.
Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea, that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how to make ev. . . Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on, everywhere. Nationalism. Nation. . . National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also. Just produce food grains. The animals can also take, you can also take. Why should you take animal?" That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Director: But where the winters are long, people have to kill animals to have something to eat over winter.
Prabhupāda: Well, but you should have. . . I am not speaking for India, Europe. I am speaking the whole human society. Just try to understand.
Director: People started eating meat because in winter they had nothing else to eat.
Prabhupāda: No, you can eat meat, but you cannot eat meat by killing your father and mother. That is human sense. You are taking milk from the cow; it is your mother. You take milk, that in Australia they produce so much milk, butter and everything. And after it is finished, cut the throat and make business, send to other countries. What is this nonsense? Is that humanity? Do you think?
Director: Well, say two hundred years ago people, to survive the winter, had to kill the. . .
Prabhupāda: No, no. You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk, you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this. They do not know all these, how nature is working, how God is managing. They do not know God. This is the defect of the society. They do not care what is God. "We are scientists. We can do everything." What you can do? Can you stop death? Nature says, "You must die. You are Professor Einstein, that's all right. You must die." Why the Einstein and other scientists, they do not discover a medicine or process, "No, no, we shall not die"? So this is the defect of the society. They are completely under the control of nature, and they are declaring independence. Ignorance. Ignorance. So we want to reform this.