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Two kinds and types of... (Conversations 1968 - 1975)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Prabhupada Comments on Prahlada Maharaja Slides - August 25, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: We shall enjoy material life, and the same time become God." So these cheap things are exhibited by the demons. And when a demon is born, the natural disturbances are there. When there are natural disturbances, we must know that there is some demonic principle. That is stated in all Vedic scriptures. At the present moment, because we are increasing daily demonic principles, or demonic population is increasing, we are meeting with so many disturbances. So when these two demons, playing the part of demons, they also took birth on this planet, there were so many disturbances and this picture is there, that so many disturbances are being created at the time of their birth. Next picture? Ah. So when the demons became full-fledged human being, got this body... Demons and... There are two classes of men. One is called demon, and other is called demigod, or god. The demigod and the... The difference between demons and demigods is that the demigods, they are also human beings, but they obey the Supreme Personality of Godhead and they believe in the supremacy of the Supreme Lord. But the demons, they do not believe in the existence of God or they obey the supremacy of the Lord. That is the difference between demons and demigods. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, in other scriptures also, you'll find, dvau bhūta-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two classes of men. Men means living entities. Either in this planet or any other planet. But in this planet the demons, number of demons, are great, not in other planets. So there are two classes of men. One class is called demon, and other classes are god, or demigod. And what is the difference between them? Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daivaḥ. The godly persons, who are devoted to the Lord, they are called demigods. And asuras tad-viparyayaḥ. Asura means demons. They are just opposite number. They are very much against anything God. They want simply, cheaply to become God. That is their demonic principle. So where, there was fight. And the demons are always very much inimical to the gods. There are many men... You have got experience, some of you, that if you speak something about God, they become very angry: "What nonsense, God? I am God. Everyone is God. What special qualification of God?" This is demonic principle.

Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: So far Hindu religion is concerned, it is a very broad thinking. The Hindu religion, Vedic religion, is divided into two kinds of philosophers. One kinds of philosopher is the impersonalist. They take the Absolute Truth as impersonal, all-pervading impersonal. And the another philosophers, they take that the Supreme Absolute Truth is person. The impersonal feature is one of the features of that person, but ultimately he is person. So without person there cannot be any question of love. Therefore the section who believes in person... Not believing, they know actually what He is, and there is method how to love that person. The example is given: just like the sun and the sunshine and the predominating Deity in the sun globe, similarly, one who comes to the light, he first of all sees the sunshine. That is impersonal. Then, if he goes further, if he is able to go to the sun planet, that is localized. And if he can enter into the sun planet and see the predominating deity there, then he is a person. So this is a vast science. People are too much engrossed with material activities. They do not try to understand actually what is the position of Absolute Truth, what is the position of the soul. Practically in the present day they are more or less animalistic. Just like animal does not know anything beyond eating, sleeping, mating and defending, similarly, the modern civilization is too much busy for increasing the method of eating and increasing the process of comfortable life or sleeping, and increasing the matter of, method of sexual life, or increasing the method of defense. So these things, are found even in the animals. They also eat, they also sleep, they also have sex life and they also defend in their own way. So human life is not limited within these four walls. He has to understand what he is, what is this world, what is this creation, what is God, how it is going on. But they are neglecting that fact.

Room Conversation -- October 20, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: ...the whole atmosphere, you should come and disturb. You are making... You cannot understand? And the whole attention is diverted to you. So harā, harā is the form of the word... Hare is the form of the word harā when address, when She is addressed. And Kṛṣṇa, when He's addressed, the form does not change. This is grammatical rule. So Hare Kṛṣṇa means, "Oh, the energy of Kṛṣṇa, or energy of the Lord," and Kṛṣṇa, "the Lord." So Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa means I am praying not only to the Lord, but to the energy also. This is natural. Just like a man and woman. In whole world there is combination of male and female, either... Any society, human society, or bird society or dog society or animal society. Why this male and female? Why? Female is the energy, energy of the male. Why a man takes, marries a woman and takes responsibility...? Of course, in your country they marry as a matter of joke, immediately divorce after week or after seven days. But marriage means to take full responsibility of a woman. That is real marriage, Vedic marriage. We, when I get married our boys and girls, the boy takes this vow that "I take responsibility of your maintenance throughout your whole life," and the girl promises that "I desire to serve you throughout my whole life." So the woman, the female, is the energy. When a man comes at home, he sees that everything is nicely decorated, my wife is well-dressed and foodstuff is nicely prepared, he becomes encouraged. He can work more nicely. Therefore woman is the energy. The woman gives the energy and he can work. Wherefrom this idea came? The idea came because it is originally here, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is coming from the Supreme; otherwise where do you get this idea? Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Without being in the origin? Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (Bg 7.10), Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the root of everything." So if this energy, male and female combination, is a necessity, so wherefrom this necessity came into existence unless it is there in the origin? Therefore it is to be understood that the Absolute has energy. He has got different energies. By His energies He is acting, and that is confirmed in the Vedic sūtra, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). The Supreme Absolute Truth has multi-energies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate, multi-energies. And svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca, and by His energies he's working in such a nice way that it appears that it is being automatically done. Just like this tape recorder is working. How it is working? The electric energy is there. By the electric energy the machine is so nicely working that when it is replayed exactly I am speaking. So energy is working. I am speaking, my speaking energy is acting, electric energy is helping. This machine energy is accepting and a nice thing is coming. Similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation is the manifestation of the energies. The rascals, they do not understand. And when it is stated that everything is Brahman, that is to be understood that everything is working under the energy of the Supreme Brahman. That is real meaning. But this is simultaneously one and different. When this tape recorder will play, it will play exactly I am speaking to you. There will be no difference of voice. If somebody hears from other room, he'll understand that Swamiji's speaking, but still, that speaking is different from me. Because my energy is working there. Similarly, there are two kinds of energies.

Interview with LA Times Reporter About Moon Trip -- December 26, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Pious. There are two kinds of activities: vicious and pious.

Reporter: Pious and...

Prabhupāda: Vicious.

Reporter: Vicious?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So those who are engaged in vicious activities, they cannot go to that moon planet. And it is also stated that if somebody goes to the moon planet he gets duration of life very, very long period.

Reporter: If someone goes to the moon planet...

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has a long duration of life there in that moon planet.

Reporter: I guess I didn't understand.

Prabhupāda: Just like we are living here at most hundred years, but they can live there ten thousand years. Do you follow? Just like different forms of body have got different duration of life. A dog lives for six years or a cow lives for twenty years, a man lives for hundred years. Similarly, the residents of moon planet, they live for very, very long time, ten thousands of years.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Journalists -- August 18, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: If you cannot... if you remain demon then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become... There are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness. That Hitler will come and this will come, that will... They will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way.

Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst...

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is you cannot be happy and prosperous in this demonic civilization.

Journalist (1): What about the Western religions like Christianity? That's been with us now for two thousand years and doesn't seem to have helped people to become particularly...

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand what is religion. Then you come to different types of religion. Religion means to understand God. Do you agree to that or not?

Journalist (1): So if Christian religion is teaching to understand God and to become obedient to God, then it is all right. If it is not teaching that then it is useless. Simply by stamping, "I am Christian," what do you gain by that?

Journalist (1): Well nothing, but that...

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.

Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma, and the śūdra's dharma.

Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swamiji, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore, a man must be..., he must have the knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas.

Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva, raja, tama guṇa. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya, nirguṇa.

Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ(?).

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview -- July 5, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: No, we are not manufacturing this idea. That it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ: (BG 14.4) in every species of life, whatever forms are there. And besides that, we take this body as dress. Just like your white shirt is not you. You are different from the white shirt. Similarly, one may have a body white or black, but he, as spirit soul, is different from the body. We are taking account of the person who is possessing the dress—not the dress, but the person. Just like I am talking with you, I am not talking with your shirt. I don't look to your shirt, whether you have put on a white shirt or black shirt. That is not my concern. I am concerned with you as a living being. This is our philosophy. We don't take account of the outward shirt and coat. This body, this gross body is just like coat, and within this gross body there is subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. Within the subtle body, the spirit soul is there, and we are trying to deliver the spirit soul from these two kinds of entanglement, subtle and gross. That is our aim. The national movement or religious movement, that is more or less on the basis of the outward dress. One is Christian because he is born by a Christian father. Is it not? One is American because he is born on the land of America. We say that you are neither Christian nor American, Hindu, Muslim or Indian. You are servant of God eternally. Try to understand this fact, and make your life in that way. Then your life is successful. This is all. Simple. Now what is your comment on this statement?

Guest (1): I, uh, I'm enjoying everything you're saying, and I, I, I think maybe I should listen to some other questions now, to...

Prabhupāda: So you are agreed to this?

Guest (1): I, yeah, I like it. I like it. (laughter)

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: No. That I have explained. You work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is called "Don't see to the result." Kṛpaṇa, kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. Kṛpaṇa. There are two classes of men. One is kṛpaṇa, and one is brāhmaṇa. Kṛpaṇa, they want his sense satisfaction, and brāhmaṇa, they want Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. Satisfaction must be there but when you want your satisfaction, that is kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. He wants to enjoy the result. That is the whole world. Material world means everyone wants his sense satisfaction, but the same way, when you'll satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, then you become brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava. The result must be there. If you work, there must be some result, bad or good. But if you want to enjoy, yourself, then you are kṛpaṇa. And if the result is enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa, then you are brāhmaṇa. Result must be there. Any work you do, there must be some result, and that is also described in the... Yajñārthāt karma. Yajña means Viṣṇu. For His sake one should work. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you work not for yajña, for your sense gratification, then you become bound up by the result of the karma, good or bad. So if we work for Kṛṣṇa, if the result is given to Kṛṣṇa, that is our perfection. Otherwise, kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ—we remain kṛpaṇa.

Guest (2): No, that is what my question is, how to do that. I mean, how in our day to day life...

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: The predominating deity in the sun planet, his name is Vivasvān.

Scholar: Vivasvān, yes. And he's supposed to be the originator of...

Prabhupāda: He's the original person for the... There are two kinds of kṣatriyas. One coming from the sun-god, and the other is coming from the moon god, candra-vaṁśa, sūrya-vaṁśa.

Scholar: That's a very good correction for us. (Indonesian)

Prabhupāda: Personification means he... From the explanation it appears that actually there is no person.

Scholar: Yes. Originally there was person.

Prabhupāda: Not was, is, is still.

Scholar: Is still.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their life is long duration.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There are kings, son of the Manu, they lived for eight, eleven arbuda years. One arbuda years means ten crores. One crore means ten millions. Ten million. So ten million years makes one crore. Such eleven crore years... There is history (indistinct) one of the Manus, he reigned over for eleven arbuda years. One arbuda means ten millions of years. So Vivasvān, Vivasvān he's living for so many years. Just like Brahmā's age is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You find out the verse, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). What is the Chapter?

Morning Walk -- April 25, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's directing you also. But these, how this direction takes place? According to your desire. If you want to be cheated, Kṛṣṇa will direct you how you become cheated.

Brahmānanda: From Him comes forgetfulness as also remembrance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You don't want to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa will give you such direction you'll never understand Kṛṣṇa, life after life. So Kṛṣṇa has got two kinds of direction, according to my desire, positive and negative. (pause) Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). As, as you want direction, Kṛṣṇa will give you direction.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Insects, flying insects...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Who is giving direction? Who is giving direction that "Some men are coming. Fly away." They have got intelligence, how to protect. (pause) What is this tower?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tower?

Devotee: Possibly a Coast Guard Tower.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (end of recording.)

Morning Walk -- April 26, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Detachment, when you'll understand that this is good, this is bad, naturally you'll have detachment for the bad. Unless you know this is good, this is bad, how there can be detachment? When you are offered two kinds of foodstuff, and if you know: "This is good, this is bad," then naturally you have detachment for the bad and pick up the good. First of all you have to know what is good and bad. Then, when you are convinced, naturally you know: "Oh, this should not be taken." Detached, automatically. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Therefore knowledge is first required for detachment. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā (SB 1.2.12). Jñāna, first of all knowledge, then detachment. unless you have knowledge, artificial detachment will not work. (pause)

Devotee: There are many that tell about knowledge for being good, but how do you really know? Is it just a feeling?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hmm? Knowledge means culture. Just like we were discussing. This is the process of knowledge: inquiry from right person and take the answer. That is knowledge. Just like a child takes knowledge from his father: "Father, what is this?" He gives knowledge. So you must inquire rightly from the right person. Then you get knowledge. This is the process of knowledge.

Brahmānanda: The child also has faith.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Brahmānanda: The child also have faith in the father, that the father will give him the proper answer.

Morning Walk -- April 28, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know what is the original cause, and if some person suggests... Some... Not ordinary persons. Authorized person. You won't accept.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists do not know that there are two types of energies.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not know that there are two types of energies...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...inferior and the superior.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That they're actually seeing every day.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Handling every day. Still they'll not. Dog's obstinacy. That's all. They're seeing practically, that the material energy cannot work independently unless the spiritual energy joins. So how they can expect the whole cosmic manifestation, which is matter only, has come out automatically? We are practically seeing, a very nice car, Cadillac. But if there is no driver, what is the use of that car? A computer machine. Unless the man knows how to work it, pushes the button, it does not work. So practically we are seeing that without superior energy, the material energy does not act. Still they'll not believe it. Therefore in this wonderful cosmic manifestation, there must be handling of a superior energy. And that they do not know. They are amazed with this material arrangement.

Morning Walk -- April 29, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Cause of all causes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, the two causes, are not very clear. The material and instrumental.

Prabhupāda: Hmmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The two types of causes, the relative...

Prabhupāda: There is only one cause. Only one cause. But they are manifested in two, material and spiritual. Cause is one. But they are manifested in two; one is material, one is spiritual.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the instrumental is the spiritual?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The instrumental cause...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Efficient cause. Maybe. Which is actually acting.

Karandhara: Just like the material cause of the ocean is the rain.

Prabhupāda: Hmmm?

Karandhara: Or the material cause of the rain is the ocean. The efficient cause, the spiritual, the original cause was Kṛṣṇa because He created the material energy.

Room Conversation -- July 9, 1973, London:

Revatīnandana: So we don't actually discriminate between the tree, and say, the atom, as a living entity.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Haribol. Little by little it's becoming clear.

Prabhupāda: Sthāvara, sthāvara means one cannot move, standing. Sthāvara-jaṅgama. There are two kinds of living entities. One moving, one not moving.

Yogeśvara: But the atom is always in motion. The atoms and molecules are always constantly moving.

Prabhupāda: That movement is different. That is not independent movement.

Yogeśvara: Is that to say that a stone has a living entity in it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Actually what we discussed is that every, even the elements, the atoms, everything is made of nothing but spirit souls in fallen conditions. Because everything comes from brahma-jyotir, which is nothing but spirit souls, and brahma-jyotir... Therefore soul never changes. So this manifestation is from brahma-jyotir. Therefore, it is made of souls. It is nothing else but spirit souls. Yesterday, a few days ago we discussed that.

Prabhupāda: It is simply covered by another energy which is called material energy. And that is māyā. Māyā means that is not actual, not factual. The example is given, just like the sun is covered by the cloud. The cloud is nothing but another creation of sun. But when the cloud comes, sun is invisible. Similarly this condition, forgetfulness, is my creation and when I am covered by this forgetfulness I become stones and atoms, like that.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: The difference is God... In the Vedas it is stated that God is just like a person like you and me. Just like we are persons, we are talking face to face, similarly, God is also a person. But... We are also persons. But what is the difference between these two classes of persons.

Mr. Wadell: Exactly.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the difference is eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. God is the maintainer, the supplier of all necessities of the so many persons. That is God.

Mr. Wadell: Yes, I accept that.

Prabhupāda: This is the difference. We are maintained, and He is maintainer. That is difference. Otherwise, God is also person, I am also person. One is maintainer and others, the plural number, they are maintained. In the Christian religion also, the same idea is: "God give us our daily bread," maintenance. So that is the difference. He is the bread supplier, and we are bread eater. That's all.

Mr. Wadell: He doesn't supply his bread to everybody unless...

Prabhupāda: Everybody, yes, everybody. Beginning...

Mr. Wadell: People die, do they not?

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Well, how can I say? You have got independence of desire and not to desire. That depends on you. If you never desire, then you continue, perpetually, material life. But there is chance.

Father Tanner: Now, taking that person, when material things cease, what happens to him?

Prabhupāda: Material things, material and spiritual, the living entities, they are spiritual, and the material elements, earth, water, fire, they are also material energy. There are two kinds of energies. Why two kinds? Three kinds of energies. Just like fire has got two kinds of energies, heat and light, similarly, God has got multi-energies. All those multi-energies have been divided into three. One is called internal, another is called external, and the third is called marginal. So this material world is manifestation of the external and marginal energy. So when the material world ceases to exist or it is dissolved, annihilated, so energy goes back to God. It goes back. Again, when there is creation, the same energy creates. The marginal energy, by the marginal energy and external energy. This is going on. Just like day and night, it is going on. At daytime people are busy. This is creation. At night everyone is sleeping. Similarly, when there is creation, these activities are going on. When there is no creation, it is night, everyone is sleeping.

Father Tanner: Is there a spirit opposed to the divine spirit?

Prabhupāda: Spirit opp...?

Father Tanner: Opposed. Taking that the, you know, that God is good,...

Room Conversation with Two Buddhist Monks -- July 12, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is... The cattle food is food for the non-civilized man. If you claim to be civilized, you cannot eat.

Buddhist Monk (1): (laughs) Live and let live. That's what I have been asking people wherever I go. They talk of culture, civilization, progress, development, living standards, education, equality, freedom, lots of things. I asked them to define this, and I asked them, "The animals are of two types: the carnivorous and the vegetarian. Of course, the carnivorous looks even fiercer. But where has one found in the forest so many thousands of animals slaughtered and lying at random? But man today, in the name of progress and civilization..."

Prabhupāda: Very, very good. Yes.

Buddhist Monk (1): Yeah. So they have gone, according to me, lower than our animal brothers.

Prabhupāda: Certainly, certainly. Your argument is very good.

Buddhist Monk (1): Of course, it's very very...

Prabhupāda: In the forest, there is no slaughterhouse, although they are carnivorous animals.

Buddhist Monk (1): Is the only way.

Room Conversation with Lord Brockway -- July 23, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: There it is stated

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

Lord Kṛṣṇa says that there are different species of life, yoni. According to Padma Purāṇa there are eight million, four hundred thousand species of different forms of life. So Kṛṣṇa claims that "All these living entities, in different forms of life, I am the seed-giving father of all of them, and the material nature is the mother." Just like father impregnates with the seed, and the mother gives the body, similarly God impregnates material nature with all kinds of living entities, not in different forms, but the original seed. And according to one's karma, he comes out in different types of bodies. The body is given by material nature, and the life is given by God. This is the sum and substance. And therefore God is one, and He's the father of everyone. As such, without the center point, God consciousness, we cannot substantiate the ideas of universal brotherhood. Because if the center is missing, then how we can think of universal brotherhood? If we accept God is the center point, father, then I can understand you are my brother. Because you are also son of God; I am also son of God. But I am missing the father, then we miss also our mutual relationship. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he does not make any distinction between a tree or a man or animal or a brāhmaṇa or a caṇḍāla because he sees that within the body there is the soul, and the soul is spirit, part and parcel of God. That is his vision. You can take Bhagavad-gītā and... Read the Sixteenth Chapter. So at the present moment, the world is missing God, or they are rejecting, demonic. There are two classes of men always. One is called devatā, godly, and the other is called demon, asura. Or satanic. Whatever you call, the two classes. So those who are God conscious, they are godly. And those who have no God consciousness, they are demonic, or satanic. So these two classes of men are always there. But at the present moment, the number of demonic or satanic consciousness, they have increased. Yes. So the symptoms of the demonic people are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you kindly hear... You can s...

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position.

Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Yogeśvara: In ISKCON, are there these four divisions?

Prabhupāda: No, we are transcendental to all these material divisions. This is material division.

Yogeśvara: In that case, in which of these four divisions are we?

Prabhupāda: First-class. That is the beginning. But we go above the first-class. (break) Similarly, socially also, you must have four divisions. The reason is the material nature is working under three divisions, goodness, passion and ignorance. In our body also, the brain is working under goodness quality. The arm is working under the influence of passion. The belly is working in between passion and ignorance. And the leg is working under ignorance. Leg cannot work unless there is direction by the brain. At the present moment, the society's working under the influence of passion and ignorance. The brain is lacking now. Therefore we are creating Kṛṣṇa conscious men who has got real brain. Intelligent class of men. So other classes of men who are acting under influence of passion and ignorance, they should take direction from us. And for our directing business, we don't charge anything. And if they follow our direction, they have no loss.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: It is already there. He is professor, why? (laughter) That is their rascaldom. They are doing the same thing. But still they are decrying the process. Why you have become professor? You remain ordinary worker. There is no need of professor. Why he has become professor of Indology? And there is two, amongst the workers also, there are two classes, manager class, worker class. You have to divide. Without division... (break) Just like this body is not a lump of matter. There is division. Without division, the body cannot work.

Yogeśvara: So that's no excuse that there is...

Prabhupāda: That means... these rascals, they have simply imperfect knowledge. Still, they are leader. That is our protest. That why you become leader? You have got so many imperfections. Why you are cheating people? That is our protest. You have no perfect knowledge. Still, you become leader. Why? Why you are cheating men like that? Just like the professor who was speaking that by four, combination of four chemicals, life has come. And as soon as he was challenged that: "If I give you these four chemicals, whether you can produce life?" He said: "That I cannot say." Then what is the use of speaking like that? So they're cheating, and people are being cheated. Still, they're given Nobel Prize. "Oh, here is a big man." They'll talk all nonsense. At, at the same time, they'll become professor, teacher. And people will accept. So at least let us protest against this system.

Bhagavān: Guru-gaurāṅga, that kīrtana's too loud downstairs. There was a professor who came to see you in London, the religion professor.

Morning Walk -- August 30, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Those who know Sanskrit, they know what is the meaning of Veda. Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda-vid jñāne. Jñāna means knowledge. That means the history of Veda means from the date of creation of this material world. Now find out the date of creation of the material world. Approximately, nobody can give what is the date of. We can, we cannot... Date of Brahmā, he got the, first of all, the Vedic knowledge. Now, one day of Brahmā you cannot calculate. One day of Brahmā. And the... When Brahmā's night is there, there is devastation up to some extent. So again in the daytime of Brahmā, that creation takes place. There are two kinds of devastation. One devastation is at the night of Brahmā and one final devastation is the whole cosmic manifestation finished. So these teeny people, they are after the dates of Vedas, and that is ludicrous, that is...(laughs) Just like there are many microbes, they grow in the evening and die just in the day beginning. So whole night is their span of life. So our life is like that. What history you can write? Therefore, we receive Vedic knowledge from the authorities. And what is the value of these dates?

David Lawrence: (laughs) Indeed. I mean it's the sort of thing that Western scholars excel in, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Suppose if you try to trace out when the human being began calling "mother." Can you trace out the history?

Śyāmasundara: They try to take away from the Vedas by making it seem very young so that the Bible is older. They think that Vedas came from Bible, many scholars.

Prabhupāda: Oh? These rascals think like that?

David Lawrence: Yes, you see they say that the, because the Āryans came from or passed through at least the Middle East, that in fact some of the older parts of the Old Testament predate, so they say, and indeed some of the Egyptian higher, some of the better Egyptian stuff...

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, how Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa is giving example side, by side. Yathā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. He's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to another state. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa gives example. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, like that. Similarly, after finishing this body, it may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). This material, eight kinds of materials—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego. So when your body of earth, water, fire, air... Now in the... Now here is a medical man. He knows about this body made of earth, water, fire, air. But he does not know, perhaps, the body made of mind, intelligence and ego. Do you think so? That there is another body made of mind, intelligence and ego?

Guest (2): Not, not in that sense.

Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Translation.

Śrutakīrti: (reads translation)

Prabhupāda: It is a question of taste. Just see birds, two kinds of birds, crows and the swans, different taste. Therefore we are trying to create taste for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then these crows' place, newspaper, we'll not... We don't read newspaper. We don't touch it unless there is some news of ours. We don't touch it. What is the use of wasting time? They read so big, big bundle of newspaper. But we don't touch them. Oh, we have got (indistinct) literature here. Why should we waste our time in the crows' manifestation? The same politics, same Nixon, same Dixon, same Hitler. It is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. Things which have already been chewed and thrown away, another person is crying, "Let me see if there's any juice." But you have already chewed. What juice you find there? Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), again and again, same politics, same new leader, same he's a rascal. Just like Nixon advertises in news, "America now requires Nixon." So America accepted him and now America doesn't want him. Again another Nixon will come. This is going on, punaḥ punaḥ, again and again, chewing the chewed. The people are not disgusted but we have tasted all these rascals. Why another Nixon?

Dr. Hauser: There doesn't seem to be any accumulation of knowledge.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...two classes of men: the communist and the non-communist. Not exactly communist and capitalist, but communist and non-communist. Out of these two, the communists are going to be powerful. This is the world tendency. So if the world becomes full of communists, then the human civilization will be finished. All rogues and rascals, that's all. The American government wants to check this tendency. But they cannot check it if they remain "so-called trust in God." That will not be possible. So according to our proposition... Not only now, it is forever. Two classes of men are there: sura and asura. Surāsura. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved devaḥ. Deva and sura, the same thing. Asuras tad viparyayaḥ. And the asura, or the demons, godless. So if the Americans remain godless in the name of so-called trust in God, they will not be able to check this communistic movement. They will not be able. Now, if they are serious to check this communistic movement, save the American country as well as the whole world, then they must be very serious to understand what is God and what is trust in God. Otherwise this communistic movement will finish the civilized human society. So you are thoughtful. They must be very serious about it. And this is the only movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which can make all people actually trust in God and explain what is meant by God. Demons, they... If the communists are demons and the capitalists are also demons, fighting between demons, there will be war and loss of life, but nobody will come out victorious. That is going on. There is occasional world war, but the situation of the world remains the same. No party has become able to change the situation of the world. What do you think, Karandhara?

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, but don't think like that. But there are two kinds of business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). To give protection to the devotees and killing the unbeliever. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. (break) Yes. Government has got two departments: law and order department, military department. Why? Two things must... (break) This is their business, śūdra business. Śūdra business. Śūdras, they have no knowledge. They commit mistake over and over. Therefore brāhmaṇa required to guide the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical. Just in your country, you have all elected Mr. Nixon as president, and again you are protesting. Why you are protesting? You have already elected him. What is the reasons?

Karandhara: Well, he's a rascal.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all. This kind of election is rascal election. It has no meaning. Therefore the public must know whom to elect and how to elect. That should be our propaganda. Because nowadays it is democratic government, teach people how to select the real leader. Real leader means who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned, who does not cheat and who has no imperfect senses, who has, or, other words, one who has got perfect senses. So if you say, "How it is possible for the conditioned soul?" "Yes, it is possible if you follow the perfect." Just like we are doing. We are following Kṛṣṇa. He does not commit mistake, He is not illusioned, His senses are not imperfect, and He does not cheat. We are following. Therefore, although we are imperfect, because we are following the perfect, our proposition is perfect. A child may be illiterate, but when he's taught, "Write A like this," and he follows that, he becomes literate. This is the policy.

Morning Walk -- December 15, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, they must be, because they do not know what is to be known. Their knowledge is imperfect.

Karandhara: Nietzsche, Freud, they all died madmen.

Prabhupāda: Madman means when one becomes frustrated, he becomes mad. That is the...

Karandhara: But the people, after them, they think that their lives were very great. They read their books and accept their authority.

Prabhupāda: There are two classes of men. We don't say their life was great. So therefore I say, who will settle? I am right or he is right? Always you will find the madman will say, "I am right." Another man say, "You are not right; I am right." Then who will settle up? That is the point. You will find always these two classes of men. You say you are right, I say I am right.

Candanācārya: But by committing suicide, didn't he accept that finally death was the only thing that was not absurd?

Prabhupāda: Yes, for them the death is the only solution.

Prajāpati: Rascals like such books, Prabhupāda, because it requires no commitment on their part. To read such men—"Oh, yes, that's very nice. I can read them and put them down." But it doesn't require me to trust in God or to do anything for the world.

Prabhupāda: No. Books are written in favor: "If you want to know more about us, then here is book." Because from books, generally, we get knowledge. Otherwise book is not required. Very brilliant light.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 3, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily demoniac. Two classes of men are always there: intelligent and demon. (break)

Karandhara: ...comet. They just discovered it one or two years ago. They said that if it ever passed by the earth before, it was the time of the dinosaurs.

Prabhupāda: Dinosaur?

Karandhara: Yes. Over fifty thousand years ago.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He cannot say what happened yesterday, and he's speaking fifty thousand years. Is there a statement in any śāstra or his own statement?

Karandhara: No, that's by mathematical calculation of the trajectory and speed.

Prabhupāda: Oh, mathematics...

Karandhara: It's going at a certain speed in a certain orbit. So they calculate that it would complete that orbit once every fifty to two hundred thousand years.

Prabhupāda: That is there in astrology, astronomy. That is not discovery.

Karandhara: No, actually, one scientist just looked at a telescope and saw it coming. And that's what they call discovery. And of course, he got the comet named after him.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Room Conversation -- February 6, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So destiny is that we should devote our life for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This human life is meant for that purpose. By nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27), nature is bringing us. As soon as we become sinful, we are dropped down to suffer the sequence of sinful life in different varieties. Again, just like a man, criminal, is put into the jail, but when his time is finished, again he is made free. Similarly, the cycle of birth and death, dehāntara-prāptiḥ, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one after another, is going on. So the animal life means reaction of sinful life, and upper class of life, demigods, means result of pious life. Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra. It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila (CC Madhya 20.117). So it is recommended in the human form of life, first of all training as a brahmacārī, then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī, remain as brahmacārī, and twenty-five years to remain as gṛhastha, family man, and twenty-five years as vānaprastha and twenty-five years as sannyāsa. This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means vānaprastha is the prepāration for sannyāsa, and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system. Just like you are spirit soul. Our business is not here. Our business in the spiritual world. Here, by circumstances you have fallen into the material condition, but if you take "This is all-in-all our duty," that is not advised in the śāstra. It is circumstances. We have fallen into, under certain circumstances, so we have to take care of. The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Eh? Not necessarily.

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessary. So in this varṇāśrama college there would be two divisions, varṇa and āśr... Learning a materia...

Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.

Hṛdayānanda: First they should be taught a skill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varṇas, there will be no question of unemployment.

Hṛdayānanda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad-gītā and...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Tejaś cāsmi vibhāvasau.

Prabhupāda: There are two kinds of smell, bad smell and good smell. So when you smell a nice flower, puṇya-gandhaḥ, you remember Kṛṣṇa. "Here is Kṛṣṇa. Here is Kṛṣṇa." Puṇyo-gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca.

Mr. Sar: Tejaś cāsmi vibhāvasau.

Prabhupāda: When we, when you find vibhūtimat sattvaṁ, a very powerful man, a powerful elephant, you should, you know that "There is Kṛṣṇa. This power is Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: This is standard nyāya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Then?

Guest (5): But it will take millions of years before you understand Him like that...

Prabhupāda: No, because you won't understand. If you don't understand, then it takes millions of years. Otherwise in a second. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). "I am the taste of the water." Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. So you see the sunshine. This is Kṛṣṇa. The moonshine is Kṛṣṇa. First of all try to see Kṛṣṇa in... There are two kinds of snakes. One snake is poisonless, and another snake is poisonous. So before catching the poisonous snake, you practice to catch the non-poisonous snake. Then gradually, you'll be able. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, and this is the process to see Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the taste of the water," that is a fact. So you see this Kṛṣṇa. Then you will, one day you will realize the Supreme Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between this Kṛṣṇa and that Kṛṣṇa. This is the purport. (break) ...learn something, you should accept the process. If you don't accept the process, how you can learn? (break)

Morning Walk at Villa Borghese -- May 25, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). A mūrkha, a rascal, when he is given good advice, he becomes angry. He becomes angry. He does not take for solution of the problem, but he becomes angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam (?). Because they are miscreants, like snakes, if you give him milk, his poison will increase. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam.

Yogeśvara: When I was at the university, there were two kinds of strikes. One was by the students and the other one was by the professors.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) And what about the clerks? They also strike sometimes.

Yogeśvara: They took advantage of the two.

Prabhupāda: Everyone dissatisfied—that's a fact. This is a bad civilization.

Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī is giving a course in Paris at one university, and there we can't always have our classes. We are scheduled every week, but we've only had two or three. The whole rest of the time the university has been closed because the students were striking. Practically the whole year.

Bhagavān: (car screeches as passing by) So fast and they go nowhere.

Prabhupāda: He is proud that "How fast I can drive!" Just see. And where you are going? "I am going to hell, that's all. Never mind." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā Just like the flies. They are coming very forcefully. Where? In the fire. Pat! Pa! Pa! Pa! Pa!" They are very busy. And as soon as on the fire, finished. Just see. Very busy. Without inquiring, "Where I am going so forcefully?" But they are going to the fire.

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Oh. Wherefrom this water is coming?

Dhanañjaya: This is coming from the municipal supply. It is not natural. It's not natural spring water or stream water. It's artificially pumped.

Prabhupāda: And the water is also going out?

Dhanañjaya: Somewhere, yes. It is being circulated. So therefore there must be two kinds of intelligence: intelligence which is being generated by the brain, and intelligence coming from the supersoul.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: So everyone in the material world is caught up with the intelligence generated by the brain.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are bahir-artha-māninaḥ, they are thinking that this is all. A group of men is coming, and they are exploiting the resources, material world. Just like this building. It is nothing but exploiting the resources. Making brick from the earth or stone or iron. And they pile up. Just like the children goes to the beach, they pile up the sand, and they imagine that somebody is making big palace, somebody is...

Dhanañjaya: Big castle.

Prabhupāda: Big castle. And at a time they left. In the Roman, the... Formerly, the Romans, they also came. They also constructed big, big buildings. Now they are rotting, and another generation, they also are creating the same thing. But exactly like the children, after playing, they are going. Nobody knows where they have gone. Similarly, these rascals, they are coming. They have got the human intelligence. Simply spoiling that intelligence in amassing the external resources of material nature, and they leave the platform, and again go away and take the birth of some other form of life. Everything forgotten just like dream. This is going on. They cannot understand it has no value.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger, there's a danger in what he calls "spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually...

Prabhupāda: But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he... That is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego, that "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good.

Yogeśvara: I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Yogeśvara: That how can we say that to give people..., that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress.

Prabhupāda: But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do?

Morning Walk -- June 20, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: ...scientists can change it? Nature. Nature. Nature should be one kind. Why there are two kinds, varieties? (break) ...migration of the soul is clearly understood or not? Explain how the transmigration takes place.

Mādhavānanda: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram... (BG 2.13).

Prabhupāda: That is śloka, but you explain how it takes place.

Satsvarūpa: We get a body according to our desires, and then the body only lasts so long, and when it wears out, we have to take another body, and that is determined by our actions in this body.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But how you transmigrate?

Haṁsadūta: According to the mental condition at the time of leaving this body.

Prabhupāda: But what is the process?

Satsvarūpa: The subtle body carries the soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the main point. The subtle body carries the soul. Just like in dream, we are carried by the subtle body and placed in different condition. But so long this body is capable of working, I come to this body. My dream is over, and I come back to this body. And death means that this body, being useless, instead of coming to this body, I go to another body. This is transmigration. Just like when you vacate an apartment, then you do not come back in that apartment, but you enter another apartment. Is it clear?

Room Conversation -- June 20, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: No, influence should be only Kṛṣṇa or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, God, but they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act. Where does He live. What is His form. What is his color. Nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all these?" (tape too faint to hear) (indistinct) If they think about it at all. First of all, generally they think of something impersonal or void. The Buddhists they think God is zero. And others they think God has no form. So, two classes. The Hindus they think God has not particular form, (indistinct). And you can imagine any of them(?) That is Śaṅkara. The pañcopāsanā. But still Śaṅkara is very careful. He has given five particular forms—the Goddess Durgā, Lord Viṣṇu, Lord Siva, the sun. Therefore there are sections—the sun worshipers, the fire worshipers. Originally, (indistinct). That is Vedic culture. Their Vedic culture means many demigods. But the original God is accepted, Viṣṇu. And original to Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa. īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Kṛṣṇa also says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no superior form or authority than Me." That is confirmed by Lord Brahmā, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah (Bs. 5.1). Kṛṣṇa is controller. There are different grades of controller but the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, "Unto Me, no one else." Now our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to convince people to give Him our attention, therefore we have published so many books only about Kṛṣṇa. On every page you'll find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. Either in Kṛṣṇa Book or in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, or in the Bhāgavatam or in Nectar of Devotion, Teachings of Lord Caitanya. The word(?) is Kṛṣṇa, that is simply explained in the (indistinct).

Room Conversation with Devotees -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No... But principle is that you try to understand that you are not this body. That is applicable in all time, all circumstances, all, for everyone. It is not that formerly one had to learn that he's not this body, and now that is not required. The same problem is there still. Arjuna, five thousand years ago he was given lesson about this, that "You are not this body; you are soul." The same problem is now also for the foolish person because the foolish person will always remain in the world, and the intelligent man is to teach him. This is fact always, without any consideration of time, space, and circumstance. There will be certain class of men, foolish, and there will be certain class of men who are intelligent. So the foolish man has to take intelligence from the intelligent man. This is perpetually truth in this material world. It is not, time and circumstances changes this principle. There will be foolish men. Just like now we read, "Two classes of men are there always, the demons and the demigods." So at the present moment more demons. Two classes of men are there always, but at the present moment the demons, number of demons, are more and number of demigods are less because it is Kali-yuga.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this possible anyhow to teach consciousness in Russian and the country who are in the unitary trust in the East? Like here in the west or America and Australia, in the...?

Madhudviṣa: His question is... He is... This boy is Yugoslavian, Yugoslavian, and he has done some translating of your Īśopaniṣad into Yugoslavian. So he is wondering is it possible to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Yugoslavia?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere possible.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (3): ...can tie in with the idea of the spirit being eternal in Christ, and I believe Christ himself said that we have all been with him from the beginning.

Guest (1): And there is no beginning. According to the ideas, one group of science data, there is no beginning, and therefore there is no end.

Guest (5): It's the alpha and the omega then. Swami, do you see a difference or a conflict between being a devotee of Jesus and a devotee of Kṛṣṇa? May one be both?

Prabhupāda: A devotee means, real devotee means, he has no purpose for material gain. That is real devotee. Now we have to see what kind of devotee he is. There are two kinds of devotees: with purpose and without purpose. The "without purpose" devotee is pure devotee, and "with purpose" devotee, they are material devotee. That is distinguished in Bhagavad-gītā,

ārto arthārthī jijñāsur
jñānī ca bharatarṣabha
catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ
(janāḥ) sukṛtinaḥ arjuna
(BG 7.16)

There are pious men and sinful men. Sinful men cannot become devotee. Pious men can become devotee.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: No. The influence should be only Kṛṣṇa, or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of "Kṛṣṇa"—God. But they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act, where does He live, what is His form, what is His qualities—nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all this, about God?" They do not know. What do you think, Atreya? Have they any clear conception of God? They imagine something. If they think of God at all... First of all, generally they think of impersonal or void. Just like the Buddhists. They think God is zero. And others, they think that God has no form. The two classes. The Hindus they think, "Yes, God has no particular form, but He has got many forms. And you can imagine any one of them." That is Śaṅkara, the pañcopāsana. But still, Śaṅkara is very careful. He has given five particular forms. The Goddess Durgā, Lord Viṣṇu, Lord Śiva, the sun, then... Therefore there are a section who are the sun worshiper, or fire worshiper. Original Iranians were like that. So that is Vedic culture. There... Vedic culture means there are many demigods, but the original God is accepted-Viṣṇu. And original to Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). And Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior form or superior authority than Me." And that is confirmed by Lord Brahmā. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvaraḥ means controller. There are different grades of controller, but the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam: "Unto Me alone." (to devotee:) What is that?

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: So you follow Vedic principle?

Young man: We follow Tantric principle.

Prabhupāda: Tantric. Tantra, there are two kinds of tantras, sattvata, and there are sattvic, rajasic, anything. So your activity is on the material platform or spiritual?

Young man: It's actually... Our motive is, our objective is ātmā mokṣa (Sanskrit).

Prabhupāda: Ātmā...?

Young man: (Sanskrit). Self-realization and selfless service to humanity. So that's our principles. That's the objective of Ananda-mārga philosophy. So that's a subjective approach to objective adjustment, both, side by side.

Prabhupāda: What is that ānanda?

Young man: Ānanda means bliss, infinite happiness.

Prabhupāda: Infinite. But what is the platform of that ānanda, material or spiritual?

Young man: Of course, ānanda means very much spiritual aspect.

Prabhupāda: But if somebody wants to derive ānanda by sense pleasure, is that spiritual?

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: No, just like dictionary. The small pocket dictionary is also dictionary, and the international dictionary, (sic?) Webs, that is also dictionary. So both of them are dictionary, but they are not equal. One dictionary is meant for children and one dictionary is meant for the higher scholars. So although are dictionaries, they are two kinds of dictionaries.

Guest: Do you know, sir, that it is exactly the same way of thinking which we have in our people who believe to Muhammad? They think that the teaching of Muhammad is the most superior one. And others... Of course, Muslims do believe to others' religions, to Moses, to Christ, and so on. They have the same way of thinking. They think that they are elementary stages...

Prabhupāda: The point is... Yes.

Guest: ...and Muhammad's teaching is supposed to be the superior one. So everybody thinks that his way or his way of thinking, his theory, his religion is the most superior one.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. If you accept progress... Just like you are seeing the sun, I am also seeing the sun, the boy is also seeing the sun, but the understanding of the sun may be different. Everyone is seeing the sun. The objective is the same. But a child's understanding of sun and an elderly man's understanding of sun, a scientist's understanding of sun, or one man who has actually gone to the sun planet, there are different categories. Do you accept or not? The sun is there. God is accepted in every scripture. That is a fact. But in the same way, how far He is understood, that is different. That is different. The same example, that everyone is seeing sun: "Here is sun," there is no doubt. But a child's understanding of sun, his father's understanding of sun, or a scientist's understanding of sun, or a person who has gone to the sun planet, his understanding of sun is different. The objective is the same. And everyone is right. Either you understand fully sun or not, as soon as you come before the sun you get the light. The child is getting the light, the scientist is getting the light, and the ordinary person getting the light. Everyone is getting light, heat and light. But their understanding different, of degrees. (break) ...sun-god or sun, no, we don't say that.

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Therefore language, civilized language, is not meant for the dogs and hogs.

Madhudviṣa: No, it's just different language.

Prabhupāda: No different, not different language. I mean to say that rules and regulations, books, they are not meant for hogs and dogs. Even their own language, it is said, they'll not understand.

Pañcadraviḍa: So you say that two kinds of people enjoy life, the paramahaṁsas and the great fools. So what's wrong with being a great fool? They're also enjoying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You become. That's nice. If you want to remain a great fool, there is no checking you. You can go on.

Pañcadraviḍa: Well, then what, what is the check on fools? What is the check on fools?

Prabhupāda: There is no check on fools. You can do anything.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we know that the animals don't know all of these great truths?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we know that the animals don't know all of these truths?

Prabhupāda: Because they cannot follow. If you call the dogs and hogs, "Please come here. There will be Gītā lecture," they'll not come.

Evening Discussion -- May 6, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: So similarly, Kṛṣṇa may enter within anything, but still He is more important than anything. This is simultaneous. Aṇḍāntarasthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntarastham—Kṛṣṇa is within and without. That is Kṛṣṇa's position. Antaḥ bahiḥ avasthitam—in Kunti's prayers you will find that Kṛṣṇa, "You are within, and you are without, still nobody can understand." That is stated. What is our experience? Within and without. But Kṛṣṇa is both, within and without, and still we do not see. Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā—just like a person playing on the stage, and his relatives and others they cannot understand that Mr. Such-and-such is playing. They are seeing something else. He is playing before them, he is known to them, but he still cannot understand. This example is given, naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. So Kuntīdevī explained this. Did you not read Kunti's prayer? Kunti says, antar bahir avasthitaḥ. "You are situated within and without. Everywhere you are." But still the foolish men cannot understand. And why they cannot? Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. Just like one's father is playing on the stage, but because he is playing in a different role, or dressing in a different role, even the son cannot understand. So what is the difficulty? Hmm? Difficulty is mind; otherwise there is no difficulty. I am foolish, therefore... Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is visible to everyone. We have got two kinds of experience, within and without. He is present within and without, but still we cannot see Kṛṣṇa. That is my foolishness, that is my imperfection. We have to become perfect, then we will see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That is morning sādhana, spiritual consciousness, advancement. The more we advance in spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa we'll realize more and more. Svayam eva sphuraty adhaḥ: you cannot see Kṛṣṇa, but as soon as you become purified, He reveals Himself. It is not due to you that you can see. When Kṛṣṇa allows Himself to be seen by you, then you can see. So you have to become qualified to see Him; otherwise He is everywhere present, we can't see Him. And without being qualified, if you want to see Him, that is not possible. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse.

Room Conversation with Kim Cornish -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Brahman means the greatest, so as the sky, to our experience the sky is greater. What is the sky? The sky is a combination of small atoms. Do you know that? So if the sky is Brahman, then it is a combination of small atoms, then the small atoms are also Brahman? Just like a huge stack of rice, they are called rice, and a small grain of rice, that is also rice. So therefore there are two kinds of Brahman—the component parts of the Brahman they are also Brahman, and whole Brahman is also Brahman. Do you follow?

Kim: I hear the words.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you understand?

Kim: I follow the analogy of the rice.

Prabhupāda: The sky, the Brahman. What is the sky? A combination of atoms. So the component parts they are also Brahman, otherwise how it is Brahman? Unless the component parts are Brahman, how is it Brahman? It is a combination of many component parts, small Brahman. Param Brahman. Param Brahman means the supreme. The sea water, ocean water. Ocean water is very big, that is Brahman. Big means Brahman. But what is this ocean water? Small molecules of water. Sometimes we see the sea waves, small molecules, cool. So it is combination of small Brahman. So, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. And we are a small, very small fragmental portion of Brahman. How small are we? One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. We cannot see even the tip of the hair, very small point. And you have to divide it into ten thousand parts. And that one part—you, I, everyone. So small. So everything is Brahman. It is said sarva khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. Why? Because the Brahman is very big, but what is this big? The big is a combination of small molecules, atoms. What is your idea of Brahman?

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Sattva-guṇa, goodness. In that platform one can understand very quickly. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is little successful because we are trying to bring the students on the platform of goodness. Therefore it is becoming little successful. If you keep them in the platform of ignorance and passion, then it will be difficult.

Dharmādhyakṣa:

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
bhagavaty uttama-śloke
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
(SB 1.2.18)

Translation: By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.

Purport: Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhāgavatas. There are two types of Bhāgavatas, namely the book Bhāgavata and the devotee Bhāgavata. Both the Bhāgavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhāgavata is as good as the book Bhāgavata because the devotee Bhāgavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhāgavata and the book Bhāgavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhāgavatas. Bhāgavata book and person are identical.

Garden Conversation -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No. Just like your association is graduate. So you accept graduates to the Union?

Dr. Judah: Well, will this be...

Prabhupāda: Just like law college. Law college, one joins after graduation.

Dr. Judah: Right. There are two types of college programs. One is what we call the undergraduate program which is generally a four-year program leading to a bachelor's degree, and then there is the graduate program, which one finds, particularly here in the United States, if one is interested in religion, in the seminaries, which are...

Prabhupāda: If you have time some other time. We have to go over the particulars. So whenever you like. Day after tomorrow I am going?

Jayatīrtha: He is.

Dr. Judah: I'll be here tomorrow and tomorrow afternoon I have to go back.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So in the morning.

Dr. Judah: Yes, fine.

Prabhupāda: So we can talk in details.

Bahulāśva: We showed Dr. Judah the press and all the books, how they were published. He was very impressed.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the śūdras, fourth-class men. So the problem is that if we keep men fourth-class or increase only fourth-class men, so these things are automatic, the resultant action. Therefore, in the western countries especially, everywhere, all over the world, the attempt should be how to create first-class, second-class. At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I would suggest that in your country you are resourceful. You can take up this movement very seriously. And it is not expected that cent percent of the population will become first-class, but there must be ideal groups of first-class, second-class, third-class and the rest, fourth-class. That is required.

Morning Walk -- July 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...light?

Hṛdayānanda: What is that light?

Kirtirāja: It's on the boat.

Hṛdayānanda: On the boat? (break)

Prabhupāda: ...interested, just like you give somebody two kinds of vegetables and spices, ghee, and he makes a nice preparation. So people, these so-called scientists, they are like that. But we are after wherefrom the vegetable came. That is the difference.

Brahmānanda: Who supplied.

Prabhupāda: Who supplied. That is the difference. He is trying to take credit by mixing these vegetable and spices and salt and ghee, and he is expert in preparing a very nice, palatable... But we say that "Where you got the vegetables? Where you got the spices? Where you got the ghee?" And they are not concerned about that.

Jayādvaita: They don't want to tell.

Prabhupāda: They do not know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Less intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yato va imāni bhūtāni jāyante: The original source of all these things.

Morning Walk -- July 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...light?

Hṛdayānanda: What is that light?

Kirtirāja: It's on the boat.

Hṛdayānanda: On the boat? (break)

Prabhupāda: ...interested, just like you give somebody two kinds of vegetables and spices, ghee, and he makes a nice preparation. So people, these so-called scientists, they are like that. But we are after wherefrom the vegetable came. That is the difference.

Brahmānanda: Who supplied.

Prabhupāda: Who supplied. That is the difference. He is trying to take credit by mixing these vegetable and spices and salt and ghee, and he is expert in preparing a very nice, palatable... But we say that "Where you got the vegetables? Where you got the spices? Where you got the ghee?" And they are not concerned about that.

Jayādvaita: They don't want to tell.

Prabhupāda: They do not know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Less intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yato va imāni bhūtāni jāyante: The original source of all these things.

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: Just like this table belongs to somebody else. How can I possess it? And if the table belongs to somebody else, how can I renounce it? Renouncing means if I possess something. But if you have nothing to possess, where is the question of renouncing? And if the things belongs to somebody else, how can I possess it? This is my proposal. You cannot possess other things. And then you will be thief. If I possess other's possession, then I am thief. And if I renounce, then I am false renouncer, but I did not possess anything. So where is the question of possession and renouncing come? But the whole world is struggling. Some group is struggling for possessing, which is called economic development, and some group is trying to renounce it. Just like a rich man's son. Without any, his labor, he possesses the father's immense property. He wants to renounce it. And the poor man is trying to possess it. These two classes of men are working. One is trying to possess, and the other is trying to renounce. There is no other third group.

Ṛṣi-kumāra: What about those who are just possessing enough to maintain their bodies?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Body is maintained by the birds and beasts. The worms, ants, they also maintaining body, but they do not possess anything. So therefore, natural law is that without possessing, you can maintain yourself.

Ṛṣi-kumāra: You have to possess some food and some shelter.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This understanding, that soul is different from the body, it is meant for the dhīra, not for the adhīra. There are two classes men, dhīra and adhīra. So adhīra

means busy fool, and dhīra means lazy intelligent. But our, this movement is meant both for the dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra. We can make them really human beings. Never mind he is dhīra or adhīra. It is so nice movement. Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra priyau. It is very pleasing both for the dhīras and adhīras. Why not? What we are doing? We invite people, "Please come here. Chant, dance, and take prasāda." So both the dhīras and adhīras, they will be attracted. Dhīrādhīra priya. (break) You cannot make everyone dhīra; that is not possible. There is necessity of adhīra also. That is also... But it should be guided by the dhīra.

Indian man (1): Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra. Then it will be all right. (break) Unnecessarily.

Indian man (1): The whole week they are very, very busy. Now today, Sunday, at least they think by playing golf, they can relax.

Prabhupāda: That is also another business. So this Sunday should have been utilized for understanding God. But they have no knowledge. Because they are fools, so again busy in pushing on a ball. That's all.

Morning Walk -- November 12, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is attachment, of course, but not for any purpose. He's simply surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and whatever Kṛṣṇa will do, that's all right. Personally he has no attachment. Suppose Kṛṣṇa wants to do him something which he doesn't like to do; still he has to do. Just as Arjuna... He did not like to fight, but still, because he understood, "Kṛṣṇa wants," then he fought. This is neither attachment nor detachment. Actually it is... It was not liked by him. But he did it because Kṛṣṇa wanted. Therefore, personally he has no attachment or detachment. If Kṛṣṇa is attached to something, then he becomes attached. If Kṛṣṇa is detached to something, he becomes detached. That is bhakta's principle. Personally he is neutral. (break) ...the difference between karmi and bhakta. Karmī is attached and detached for his own purpose, and bhakta is attached and detached for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Personally he has no attachment or detachment. Kṛṣṇa says that, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). There are two kinds of principles: attachment and detachment. So mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So this material attachment and detachment one should give up. He should surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is bhakta's principle. So there is no cloud in the sky, eh? Completely clear. (break) ...the sea-going is not dangerous. It is very calm and quiet?

Brahmānanda: Sea?

Prabhupāda: Sea. Yes.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I started during monsoon, (laughs) in September.

Morning Walk -- December 24, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, what is this experiment with truth?

Dr. Patel: About what?

Prabhupāda: Anything. The world.

Dr. Patel: There are two types of experiments, sir, according to me. I may be wrong and I am open to correction. One experimentation with the crude world; another experiment with your own mind. Which type of experiment we want?

Prabhupāda: No, mind we reject immediately.

Dr. Patel: How?

Prabhupāda: Because it is not truth. It is accepting, it is rejecting.

Dr. Patel: Man sai eva (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Mind's business is to accept and reject. Therefore it is not truth.

Dr. Patel: Only by mind and concentration of the mind you get the truth.

Prabhupāda: Concentration is different.

Dr. Patel: But that is also of what? Of the mind.

Prabhupāda: The mind, when you concentrate the mind to the truth, then it is all right.

Page Title:Two kinds and types of... (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, RupaManjari
Created:17 of Nov, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=53, Let=0
No. of Quotes:53