Prabhupāda: The atmosphere may be different, but that does not mean there is no life. Just the water—the atmosphere different from me, for me. That does not mean there is no life. You cannot live within the water for a minute, but the aquatics are living and enjoying, the aquatics, big, big life.
Hari-śauri: But we don't see any case of life within fire.
Prabhupāda: Hm? That is your experience. Śāstra says there is life, agni-paḥ.
Hari-śauri: But if we go on just practical experience like you were saying...
Prabhupāda: What is your, your practical ex...? You are rascal. You have no practical experience. If there is life in the water, if there is life in the air, if there is life within the earth, why not in the fire? It is also one of the elements. Why you discard only fire? There are five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. So if there is life in the earth, in the water, in the air, in the ether, what fire has done there should be no life?
Hari-śauri: But we see. The water's here. The earth's here. We see the life in there. We agree.
Prabhupāda: Your seeing is imperfect.
Hari-śauri: But the fire is here, and there's no life in the fire.
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot see. That is your imperfect... You should conclude from the general experience, that "Here there is life; there must be... We cannot." But what do you see? Just like they have taken photograph. What is that photograph? Suppose if you take a photograph of the ocean, can you see any life? The life is within. What is the use of your photograph? Your everything is imperfect. You cannot say anything final. And you are imperfect, your senses are imperfect; whatever you have got, that is imperfect. If Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham, then Kṛṣṇa is there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, "sun-god" means he lives in the sun.
Prabhupāda: Vivasvān manave prāha. And Manu, his son, his family and...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: House.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is there. You are scientist. You are very expert, more than Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you believe like that.
Hari-śauri: Then if we accept your reasoning, then show us practically where there is life in fire.
Prabhupāda: You cannot see, rascal, because you are rascal. Therefore you cannot see. You have to hear. That is also... Because you are rascal, you cannot see. You simply... Just like you have not seen your father. Rascal, who can see? Who is that rascal who can see his father? You have to hear from the mother. You rascal, you cannot see your father. Why you are claiming that "I want to see my real father." That is not possible. You have to simply hear from the mother. That is only source. Similarly, you are rascal, everything is, you, imperfect, so you have to hear from the authority. That is only source.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śāstra-cakṣus.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no argument.
Hari-śauri: But you used the argument on me that practically we see there's life everywhere—in the water, in the air...
Prabhupāda: So why not in the fire?
Hari-śauri: So why not show me where it is?
Prabhupāda: Again the same argument. I say you are rascal. You cannot see. That is not possible.
Hari-śauri: But if I can see it in the water and I can see it in the air...
Prabhupāda: No.
Hari-śauri: ...and I can see it in the earth...
Prabhupāda: You cannot see in the water. You cannot see in the air.
Hari-śauri: We go down in submarines and we see...
Prabhupāda: So go down in the fire. You'll see. Why you cannot go to the fire?
Hari-śauri: We light a fire. We don't see any life.
Prabhupāda: But you go and it will... Go in the fire. This is the defect, that he is imperfect in every way and he claims to be God. That is the defect. The same way. I want to see who is my actual father. How you can see? You have to accept the mother. That's all. Veda. Veda is mother. Accept mother and Vedic information. Otherwise there is no possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Then you don't believe Kṛṣṇa. Why you have taken to this? So many things are there. You should take it. Just like the soul. Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin: "There is." You take it. You cannot say Kṛṣṇa, "Show me." Then finished, you knowledge. Kṛṣṇa has given the reason. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam... (BG 2.13). You can see in that way, that because the soul is there the body is changing. As soon as soul is not there, stop. It is no more... That you have to... Nothing more. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. If you are dhīra, then there is no difficulty. But you are the rascal. This is the defect. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Yes, we can practically experience also; when there is driver the motorcar is moving. No driver—no movement. Where is the difficulty? But because you are rascal you do not know how to take things practically. What is the difference between a motorcar and this machine? It is also machine. Bhagavad-gītā says it is a machine. So machine may without a conductor, without the... A machine may be very useful, computer, but if there is no worker, what is the use of this machine? Simply alone machine can work? It may be very wonderful machine.
Hari-śauri: Even the world's best computer has to have a programmer behind it.
Prabhupāda: So the computer worker or this dictaphone, everything is living being.
Hari-śauri: Must be living.
Prabhupāda: Yes, there must be touch of a living being. Therefore the whole cosmic manifestation—there is touch of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate (BG 9.10). Dead matter cannot work. We are beginning our knowledge from this. First of all try to understand what is that living force. Apareyam. This dead matter, kiñcid, itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. There is another nature. What is that? Jīva-bhūtam, living... That is superior.