Prabhupāda: No, but idol worship is . . . these atheists, they say "idol worship," but we do not say. The . . . here is Sākṣi-Gopāla. You know the story, Sākṣi-Gopāla? Two brāhmins? So he never saw that He is idol. He saw Kṛṣṇa. So he said: "Kṛṣṇa, before You this man has promised. Now he's now declining. So please come and give witness." And that is Sākṣi-Gopāla. So for a devotee, no. There is no idol.
Indian man (1): No idol. No, that idol is actually, they are planned to . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is actually happened. The so-called idol, He went to be witness. He came from Vṛndāvana to Cuttack. So "idol worship" is they say. But devotee . . . just like people are coming by thousands to see Jagannātha. Do they come to see idol? Wooden Jagannātha? They come to see real Jagannātha, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they will spend so much money and take so much trouble and come here? The atheists may say, "How foolish they are. They are coming here to see a wooden figure, and spending so much money." That is the statement of the atheist. But a devotee comes to see "Kṛṣṇa is here." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw—immediately fainted. So there are two visions.
Indian man (1): Just like viśva-rūpa it is . . .
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is forbidden: arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ (Padma Purāṇa). So the atheist class, they see, "Here is a wooden . . . oh, what is the Jagannātha made of? Wood or stone?" They're seeing wood and stone. Similarly, Vaiṣṇavas also they're seeing "a American," "European." They are blind. They have no capacity to . . . therefore śāstra says: "Don't think like that, nārakī. If you think like that, then you become hellish." Because he has no vision, he's warned only that, "Don't do this. It is very dangerous." Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Don't do it." Because he cannot see as it is, he has not elevation, but he is warned, "Don't think like that." Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, he has no such vision. Therefore he's warned, "Do not do this." Just like a child. He does not know that to touch fire is dangerous. He's warned, "Do not do it. It will be . . ." So similarly, this is warning: "Don't do this." Therefore śāstra is there. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate (BG 16.23): "Without śāstra, if one does anything," na sa siddhim avāpno . . . "he'll never be perfect." So śāstra-vidhi we have to follow. Then we come to perfection. (aside) Hmm. So that is I think scorching heat.
Hari-śauri: It's fairly hot, yes.
Prabhupāda: So better you . . . so give him little prasādam. So I am very glad to see you.