Prabhupāda: Vairāgya means when you are not addicted to sinful life. That is vairāgya. People have got attachment for sinful activities. (break) . . .deve bhagavati bhakti-yoga-prayojitaḥ, janayaty aśu vairāgyam (SB 1.2.7). That is the vairāgya way. You cannot practice vairāgya without Vāsudeva's shelter.
Dr. Patel: Vairāgya generates by extreme bhakti or by extreme knowledge. Not otherwise. Knowledge is generated by bhakti, no doubt, but then you must have complete knowledge of what is this and what is that.
Prabhupāda: Without bhakti, knowledge is artificial, because knowledge means to accept the Supreme Lord as Supreme. That is knowledge.
Dr. Patel: That is knowledge. And then this is all falsehood. From that knowledge, when you know that this is all false, then it sort of, in a sense, generated in you, to be. . .
Prabhupāda: That knowledge is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā (BG 7.15). The so-called knowledge is useless. It has no value. Māyāyapahṛta-jñāna. What is the test? Na māṁ prapadyante: "If he had knowledge, he would have surrendered to Me," but he does not do so.
Dr. Patel: Jñānavan māṁ prapadyante. That is the knowledge. Jñāna means knowledge. That knowledge is the Supreme.
Prabhupāda: But that knowledge means actually jñānavān. Otherwise it is false knowledge. Māyāyapahṛta-jñāna. If you do not know what is God, then what is the meaning of your knowledge?
Bhāgavata: You explain in the Gītā that,
- bahunam janmanam ante
- jñānavān mam prapadyante
- vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
- sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
- (BG 7.19)
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is knowledge. Therefore so many mahātmās, sādhus, yogīs, they are all useless, all useless, because they have no bhakti. Simply artificially cheating people. (break) This is a society of cheaters and cheated. If you want to be cheated, there are many cheaters who will come and cheat you. That's all.
Bhāgavata: Just like the Guru Maharaj-ji. Now the mother is denouncing. She is saying he is no more qualified to be Bhagavān. Now his brother, he is Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: That's all, anyway, a third class.
Dr. Patel: It is all humbug. I think we should not talk about this. Talk something about Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavat. Then, sir?
Prabhupāda: Yes. These people are third-class men. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Māyām etan taranti te
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . .explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Unfortunately the rascals will not take it. That is the difficulty.
Dr. Patel: In my time, when, your time, I mean our time, in the school there was a compulsion of learning the Mahābhārata and Rāmāyaṇa. Now these modern principals, they don't know anything about it. Absolutely there is no knowledge. My daughter said, "What is Rāmāyaṇa?" I had to look at a English edition of Rāmāyaṇa and give her Mahābhārata. That is what they are teaching now in the schools. So this race is going bankrupt. What about knowing about Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata? They don't know simple Mahābhārata.