Śyāmasundara: He says that space and time are mere appearances, but the ultimate or genuine reality is different.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), cause of all causes.
Śyāmasundara: He calls these ultimate entities monads. Monad means unity, or oneness. He says that the ultimate stuff out of which even the atoms are made are called monads, small particles.
Prabhupāda: And within those small particles there is Kṛṣṇa. That small particle is not final. Aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu... That is also superficial.
Śyāmasundara: He says that these monads are individual, conscious, alive and active, and they range in quality from the lowest type, or matter, through the higher of types, such as soul, to the highest, which is God.
Prabhupāda: So whether within the atom there is soul or not?
Śyāmasundara: His theory is that even the atoms are made out of these monads.
Prabhupāda: What is a monad?
Śyāmasundara: It's difficult to understand, but a monad means a tiny particle of force which is...
Prabhupāda: And we say that is Kṛṣṇa
Śyāmasundara: He says that it has activity, consciousness, etc. But each monad is individual, and its inherent qualities are produced from that monad.
Prabhupāda: That monad, as we say, Kṛṣṇa, as we understand from Brahma-saṁhitā, that Kṛṣṇa is within the atom also.
Śyāmasundara: He says that a monad is the force or activity which constitutes the essence of a substance.
Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is the substance, summum bonum. Aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). He is within everything. That is His all-pervasive nature.
Śyāmasundara: Then how are the individualities accounted for?
Prabhupāda: Every individual soul is awarded a little portion of independence, because every individual soul is part and parcel of God, so he has got the quality of independence, in minute quantity. That is individuality.
Śyāmasundara: Just like, for instance, say, this particulate substance, he would say that there is a force or activity which constitutes the essence of this substance, and that is the monad of this substance. He is attributing it to everything, matter.
Prabhupāda: So we take the atom. Atom is the smallest. So we say within the atom the force is Kṛṣṇa. He is simply suggesting there is some enforcing power. We are giving directly that that is Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: But he says that in that enforcing power each atom is individual, separate, different.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa, by His omnipotency, can expand Himself in innumerable forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Ananta, unlimited. As it is clearly said, aṇḍāntara-stham. He is within the atom.
Śyāmasundara: Is He between each atom as an individual entity, different from each other entity?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If Kṛṣṇa is there, Kṛṣṇa is individual. And atoms also, there are varieties of atoms. Sometimes they are combined together, six atoms, five atoms, three atoms.
Śyāmasundara: How is Kṛṣṇa different?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is there in every atom.
Śyāmasundara: How is He individual in each one of the atoms?
Prabhupāda: Why not He is individual? Kṛṣṇa is individual. How is He not individual? Kṛṣṇa is always individual.
Śyāmasundara: He is a person.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is always person, Supreme Person. But He can expand innumerably.
Śyāmasundara: And Paramātmā—is Paramātmā a person?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramātmā is a person. Every expansion—just like we are also expansion, atomic expansion of Kṛṣṇa. So we are persons. Every individual soul is a person. But we are expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Paramātmā is another expansion, viṣṇu-tattva. Rāmādi mūrtiṣu. That is another expansion, different kinds of expansions.
Śyāmasundara: Jīva ātmā is also a person?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If not person, then why the difference? You may not agree with my opinion, but if we agree voluntarily, not that exactly what I think you think, but because you have accepted me as your guru, as superior, therefore we agree. You are individual; you may not agree. You are individual and I am individual, Kṛṣṇa is individual. That is stated, nityo nityānām. Plural number. There are many individual souls, but He is the Supreme Individual Person.
Śyāmasundara: This idea of a monad means that...
Prabhupāda: You call it by any name, but within the atom there is the force—that is Kṛṣṇa. You call it monad or something else.
Śyāmasundara: He says the lowest type of monad is in matter, material forms, and then it proceeds up through higher monads, which are souls.
Prabhupāda: So we directly say (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa, that is (indistinct) spiritual.
Śyāmasundara: He says that each monad has an inner or mental activity, a spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in everything, that as soon as we say there is Kṛṣṇa, so there is everything.
Śyāmasundara: So even between the atoms of matter there is a spiritual life, spiritual force?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That force means spiritual force.
Śyāmasundara: He says that all bodies are ultimate quantums of force, that the essential nature of all bodies is force.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Force is the spirit soul. Without the spirit soul, the body has no force. It is a dead body.
Śyāmasundara: But just as there is a dead body of a man lying there, still there is force going on in that body. There are worms coming out...
Prabhupāda: But that individual soul, force, is not perfect. As Kṛṣṇa is within the atom, the body is combination of so many atoms, so therefore the force for creating another living entity is there.
Śyāmasundara: So just the decomposing is a force, turning to gasses. So there is force in every body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That individual soul's force is stopped. That we call dead body. But Kṛṣṇa's force is still there, because it is combination of atoms.
Śyāmasundara: He says that which is manifested to our senses, which occupy space and exists in time, is only an effect of the basic nature, which is transcendental to the physical nature. The physical nature is just an effect of a higher nature.
Prabhupāda: Physical nature is a by-product. Just like I explained that you create your body. The physical nature is subservient to the soul. Therefore, according to my desire, I get a body. I create a body.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that these monads, they create bodies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I say. So yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, as you are thinking, your next body is created. Therefore you create the body.
Śyāmasundara: But does the monad of a, say, a hydrogen molecule, does that also create its own body? Does it only accidentally become part of a water molecule, or does it...
Prabhupāda: Nothing is accidental.
Śyāmasundara: It also desires to become a water molecule? Does the atom of hydrogen desire to combine with oxygen and become a water molecule?
Prabhupāda: He... The ultimate desire is of Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: But does each atom, even of matter...
Prabhupāda: If you take it that way, Kṛṣṇa is within every atom. So Kṛṣṇa wants to be it; therefore He is willing to let these two things become one, and there is some creation, and again another creation, and another creation. The ultimate brain is Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Does the hydrogen molecule have an independent desire?
Prabhupāda: No, but within the hydrogen atom, there is Kṛṣṇa; therefore it is combining. Not this hydrogen atom as matter is combining, but because Kṛṣṇa is within that hydrogen atom existing. He knows that by combination this thing will come about, that will come out, that will come out...
Śyāmasundara: But the individual soul has a little independence to choose?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Śyāmasundara: Has no independence?
Prabhupāda: No. The individual soul does not. In Bhagavad-gītā it says that anumantā, individual soul, wants to do something and Kṛṣṇa gives orders. Man proposes and God disposes.
Śyāmasundara: So we have no free will?
Prabhupāda: No. Without sanction of Kṛṣṇa we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause.
Śyāmasundara: But I thought you had been saying that we have a little independence.
Prabhupāda: That independence that Kṛṣṇa wants me to do something but I want to deny it. But unless Kṛṣṇa sanctions, you cannot do that also.
Śyāmasundara: What I'm trying to get at is that if we desire something and we take a body because of that desire, can a hydrogen molecule desire to become part of water and be given that body? Does it have the independence to desire something and take a body accordingly? The hydrogen molecule, does it have a life?
Prabhupāda: So far as we get information, our knowledge is from the Vedic information, aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu: Kṛṣṇa is within, the Paramātmā. It does not say the soul is within, the Paramātmā.
Śyāmasundara: It doesn't say that an individual soul is present within the atom?
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is present.
Śyāmasundara: So then this philosophy of Leibnitz is not correct.
Prabhupāda: No.
Śyāmasundara: Because he says in matter there is also this kind of individuality.
Prabhupāda: That individual is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa knows that so many atoms will be combined, then another thing will be formed. It is not the individual soul but Kṛṣṇa directly.
Śyāmasundara: But when you come to the living entities, then the individual soul is also there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Within the body. Both of them—Kṛṣṇa is also there, and the individual soul is also there.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the definition of substance is a being capable of action. Substance means to be capable of action, and that existence means action.
Prabhupāda: Substance is original. Other things are categories.
Śyāmasundara: So being capable of action, is that a good definition of substance?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Substance means the original cause, so He is completely able to act.
Śyāmasundara: He says to be is to be active.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to be means to be active. Without activity, what does it mean to be?
Śyāmasundara: He says that these monads change in their appearances because the inner desire impels it to pass from one phenomenal representation to another.
Prabhupāda: The monad does not change, but his mind has changed. But I do not know what this means, monads. He is complicating. He cannot express what is this monad.
Śyāmasundara: Monad is very vague. It means a small unit of oneness or unity, which is the substance behind everything else, even the atom.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent.
Śyāmasundara: He says, for instance, that a monad changes its appearance according to its desires.
Prabhupāda: That indication is for the soul. But Kṛṣṇa is not that. Kṛṣṇa is kuta; means he does not change.
Śyāmasundara: He says just like this thing, (holding up an object) it will change to another thing, to another thing, to another thing, depending on its desire, which impels it to change. He says that even behind some object there is some ability to change.
Prabhupāda: That I have already said. Just like Kṛṣṇa, first of all He created the whole total cosmic energy, and then, by His plan, by His devices, He divides into so many things, changes, parts and parts and parts. It can be taken in that way. The material changes are going on according to the will of God, or Kṛṣṇa. Is that clear?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that each monad is like all of the others. They are identical, so that to know one is to know all, to know the whole world.
Prabhupāda: This individual monads can be taken as soul?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. And he sees soul even in matter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If Kṛṣṇa is there, there is Supersoul.
Śyāmasundara: So he would say that each particle of Supersoul or each monad is self-contained, that there is no loss of gain of force.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Eternal.