Expressions researched:
"prove"
|"proved"
|"proven"
|"prover"
|"proving"
Prajāpati: They glorify such imperfections, Śrīla Prabhupāda, by saying...
Prabhupāda: Unless they glorify their imperfection, how they can stand? (laughter) They have no standing. If they do not glorify, then they are proved rascals. There will be no argument. They'll have to accept that "we are rascals." Therefore they have to glorify. The glorifying society... That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. The glorifying society is consisting of ass, camel, hog, and what is the other?
Prabhupāda: Yeah, Bible cannot be because it is itself unscientific.
Satsvarūpa: The lawyer proved that the Bible could not disprove the Darwin's theory.
Prabhupāda: Then why do they not reject Bible altogether?
Nitāi: Sentiment.
Bali Mardana: No one has any idea what is God. So he, the people... they say, "Here is God", and no no can disprove it, 'cause they have no idea what is God.
Prabhupāda: No, no, here is the idea. God must be the supreme authority. So let him prove that he is the supreme authority. He's checked by the custom authority and he's God? He goes to the hospital and he's God? Here is the definition of God, that "There is no more superior authority than Me." And Kṛṣṇa proved. History says that there was no more superior authority than Kṛṣṇa. Then let him prove that first.
Satsvarūpa: When the customs authorities tried to stop Kṛṣṇa in Mathurā, He cut off their heads. They said, "Where are you going with that cloth?"
Prabhupāda: We understand from the writings, not from the fossils and bones. The bones and fossils are already finished, but they kept their writing.
Bali Mardana: Only the uncivilized people were buried.
Prabhupāda: Suppose I am writing books. In future if you could not find my bones and fossils, but the books will prove what I was. So we have got the books. That is the real bones and fossils.
Bali Mardana: They try to disprove...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Christianity is Vaiṣṇavism.
Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇavism? Absolutely Vaiṣṇavism.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who... Mohammedan is also Vaiṣṇavism.
Dr. Patel: Mohammedanism is not Vaiṣṇavism.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Caitanya Mahāprabhu had talk with the Pāṭhānas. He proved that "Your religion is Vaiṣṇavism."
Dr. Patel: Christianity is Vaiṣṇavism 100%.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because I have studied the whole of Bible, whole of New Testament and Genesis and everything, very well, just as I have studied the Upaniṣads. And I have come to realize that Jesus has taught Vedic religion in total, and Christ was nothing but a great saint of ancient Vedic religion. That is my conjecture, my conviction. They (indistinct) may think anything else.
Prabhupāda: His commandments proved that. He said, "Thou shall not kill."
Dr. Patel: "Thou shall not kill."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Everyone will understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is proved. We are going to Africa. We are going to Canada, Europe, America. Everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the language. When a young man and young woman loves one another, there is no question of language. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Suppose you are in a foreign country. You do not know the language. But when there is fire, you get friends without any language." You see? In the beginning of British rule, there were not very many English-knowing Indians so a clerk in his office was working. So monkey came and he scattered the office papers. So after the monkey was driven away, he was collecting the papers. In the meantime, his English boss came. "What is this, man?" So he could not say. He began to jump. You see. "Monkey, sir. Monkey, sir. (laughter) Monkey, sir." "All right. All right. That's all right." Simply to inform, without any language, you can jump, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." And he will understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Guest: Support the right minority?
Prabhupāda: There is no question of minority. Support the right person. Kṛṣṇa supported Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira in place of Duryodhana. So formerly it was monarchy. That is perfect politics. This democracy is useless. It has proved. One man, the king, he should be properly educated how to rule, what is the aim of ruling, how the people will be, I mean to say, culturally elevated, what is that culture. (break) There was a consulting board of learned brāhmaṇas and saintly persons. They would advise the monarch how to rule.
Jayapatākā: This is... This is the land here.
Prabhupāda: This is the land?
Prabhupāda: I may be whatever I am. That's all. But this is the definition of gosvāmī. Besides that, there are other, many things.
So nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇa. One must be very conversant, all kinds of śāstras. And what for? For establishing real religion. Real religion is this: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Why there are other religions existing? That means there is no gosvāmīs. Gosvāmī... If there is gosvāmī, he should stop functioning all other rascal religions. Simply this: mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, that religion. That is religion. And all bogus thing. A gosvāmī has to prove that. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-ni... lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. Why? For the benefit of the whole human society. Therefore they should be honored. Tri-bhuvane mānyau. Not that within some neighborhood. All over the world. Tri-bhuvane. That is gosvāmī. What is this gosvāmī? Tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau. He is fit to take shelter of. A cheating gosvāmī, cheating gosvāmī is no good.
Guru dāsa: I also, I also, the first day kicked a pāṇḍā out because he wouldn't eat prasādam with us. He said, "I am Vaiṣṇava. I cannot eat amongst you." So I said, "Then we cannot hear from you. Go immediately." The first day.
Prabhupāda: Many thousands many lakhs. And this is one point... And we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad-gītā, that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. Bhajana, bhajante, this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ. And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ, miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious man, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is.
Hari-śauri: Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good though.
Prabhupāda: This will be propaganda and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that "Here the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signatures. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, so there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective.
Guest: ...jī? May I submit a matter?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But if... It has no effect.
Guest: I don't say there is no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice...
Prabhupāda: Then, then you have to go, public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaiṣṇavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance, essential.
Guest: No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people that the bhajanas, and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because...
Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court.
Guest: Therefore... I'm coming on that. What I say on the prima facie, the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection, of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple, is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is going. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The position was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of position, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty man. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was, I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said, "may be." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said, "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. It "may be." That means the option is equally open: "May not be," also. That's only (indistinct) has been taken without any basis of policy.
Prabhupāda: That is your second item.
Dr. Patel: He'll not oblige the brāhmaṇas unfortunately. He'll oblige only the kṣatriyas. I don't know why.
Prabhupāda: Because he comes: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). That is kṣatriya's business. Sādhu protection (Hindi). This is kṣatriya's business. God has got two business. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. If you want to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā, it is difficult. (laughs) It is not possible. He says that "I have got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya..." Unless these two things are there, there cannot be establishment of real law and order. (break) ...everywhere, law and order. In spiritual also. Unless there is law and order, it is chaos. Law and order must be there.
Dr. Patel: Society came into existence after the evolution of the civilization.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Chandobhai: Gopīs are personal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, everything is being described as person. So where is the question of imperson? Even in His aneka mūrti, in the virāṭ form, universal form, there are persons. At least from Bhagavad-gītā, nobody can prove that the Absolute Truth, God, is imperson. That is not possible. But still, they are doing that. That means they do not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā, although they are very much proud of regular scholar of Bhagavad-gītā. So am I right or wrong? Let us discuss.
Chandobhai: He is both personal and impersonal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, why?
Prabhupāda: Everything.
Girirāja: Everything. So is it the same living soul, Arjuna, in each universe, or a different living being may be taking that position?
Prabhupāda: Take it for granted, different. What is the wrong there? After all, everyone is Kṛṣṇa's expansion. Ānanda cinmāyā-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37). We are also expansion. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. But still, we have got individuality. Kṛṣṇa proved it—I explained that in Vṛndāvana when everything was stolen by Brahmā. Again another batch of cows and calves and cowherds boys. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Immediately. What is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa? Is it clear or not? You wanted to clarify. Is it clear or not?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, you said the answer is that it's different persons, not just one Arjuna, not just one Yaśodā.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you have not so many experiences. That does not mean these things does not exist. Your experience is not all in all. Don't think like that. So these are existing actually. That is the defect, that you do not accept the authorities. That is the defect. Here Vyāsadeva is describing, who is called Vedavyāsa, full of all knowledge, and Bhāgavata is a mature experience. We are hearing from him. Why you should not believe? I may not have experience. This ghost means the living entity is subtle life without any material body. That is ghost. When one is very sinful, he does not get the material body. He lives in the subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. That is ghostly life. And they display. Because they have no body, one cannot see, but they display so many mischiefs. That is ghostly life. (break) Seeing or not seeing doesn't matter. Therefore it is enjoined in the Vedānta-sūtra, śāstra cakṣuṣā.
Indian man (1): But it should be proved.
Prabhupāda: It is true because it is spoken by Vyāsadeva. How you say it is false? You cannot say that. That is blasphemy.
Dr. Patel: Mr. Ford is going to be the president now. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...of safety and security. During Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's reign there was no unnecessary disease and anxiety also. That is mentioned. You have read? (break) Some hundred years ago. When I went to Kashmir, so they said that "Here the law was if a thief was caught and proved he has stolen, his hands would be cut off."
Dr. Patel: That is the law presently in Arabia.
Indian Man: Nepal too. Nepal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you keep... A man is dead, and keep his body. So it will decompose, but the life will come. So many worms will come. So these are... If you say that chemicals, these material, then the chemicals are there, and life is coming. Now you take this chemical and prepare. You cannot say, "Although these chemicals are there, there is some deficiency. Therefore the life is not coming." No, why do you say like that? Life is coming. That man is not coming, but the life is coming. So these are ingredients for life. You prepare. You bring that man. Still, the rascal will say that life is made from matter. Not even gentlemen, what to speak of becoming scientist? You prepare. "No, in future we shall see." And he is getting Nobel Prize. Just see how the human society has become full of rascals, go-kharaḥ. They cannot prove; still they will insist, "Yes." And so far God is concerned, we learn from śāstra that God's two energies are working like heat and light. So energies are working, we can see.
Pañcadraviḍa: We ourselves are coming from Christian country, and we see that the entire society is so-called Christian, but...
Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say entire society is after you?
Pañcadraviḍa: Pardon me?
Prabhupāda: Can you prove that the entire society is after you only?
Pañcadraviḍa: We have got our society, this International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness.
Prabhupāda: "That's all right, we have got our society. But we are also preaching, and we have got many countries, we have got devotees, Christians. Number of Christian is greater than your number of Vaiṣṇava devotees."
Prabhupāda: Then why he has said, "Thou shalt not kill"? Then hypocrisy. Then you reject Jesus complete. He is a hypocrite. Yes. That is the conclusion. How can you follow hypocrite? Huh? Is that all right? If Jesus Christ himself killed animals and he said, "Thou shalt not kill," then he is a hypocrite. Then he cannot preach. He is a hypocrite. You are bringing Christ for condemnation. But how a hypocrite can be the head or can be the religious man or can be...
Akṣayānanda: It is not that we are saying he is a hypocrite.
Prabhupāda: He is proving.
Akṣayānanda: He himself, the Christian is saying that Jesus Christ is a hypocrite.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Akṣayānanda: So why is he following?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Akṣayānanda: Does that mean you are calling Jesus Christ a hypocrite?
Prabhupāda: Hypocrite.
Akṣayānanda: Who is calling him a hypocrite, us or you?
Prabhupāda: You want to support your sinful activities by proving Christ as hypocrite. This is your business. You are such a Christian. And your love for Christ is such. (break) ...that we have to follow the instruction of the superior. Even if he acts something against the instruction, you should not follow it. You have to follow his words. You cannot imitate his action. That is real obedience.
Prabhupāda: A temple of... There are so many hundreds and thousands of Śiva temples, but nobody has exhibited śiva-liṅga, big śiva-liṅga on the head of the temple.
Akṣayānanda: Where is that, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Bombay. And he's speaking on Gītār Gān. Gītār Gān means to construct a big śiva-liṅga temple. He's proving himself a rascal by his activities. He's a rascal number one. He has gone many times to foreign countries, but not a single foreign student he has got. (break) ...from atheistic fools who are not prepared to follow any rules and regulations, they are after him.
Akṣayānanda: That Sai Baba too...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: I don't think that is right statement.
Prabhupāda: No, no, there are many scientists like..., but generally they think in their way. Just like modern scientists, they are trying to prove: from chemicals, life.
Indian Man (2): Jagadish Candra Bose, he was a great scientist. (Hindi) He can answer how many wise (?) He can answer.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Indian man (2): What shall I say? (chuckles)
Prabhupāda: This is the definition of gosvāmī. Vāco vegam krodha-vegam udaro-vegam pastha-vegam etān manasaḥ vegam, etān vegān viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. So he has not proved to be very dhīra. Dhīrādhīra-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau. So that is my regret, that these people cannot appreciate the service of a Vaiṣṇava. They are simply personally interested. Personally interested is materialistic way of life. Everybody is personally interested.
Indian man (2): I think after he returns he will do something.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Richard Webster: Well, I don't know whether these accusations have been proved in regards to Nixon. They may be true.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I think they have. What are the charges against Nixon?
Haihaya: The communists, they kicked us from the university in Mexico, because we were always defeat there in the philosophy. It is very easy to defeat communists with this philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to do. There may be opposition, but what can be done? We have to speak the resu..., that "There cannot be equality sir. You are talking nonsense." Challenge them, and let them prove that "Here is equality." Where is equality? Where is equality? You are human being. You are trying to live very comfortably. Why don't you make comfortable life for other living entities? Why you are sending them to the slaughterhouse? Where is equality?
Haihaya: If we have a world day every month, fasting world day. If we can fast, all the world can fast, all inhabitants of the world...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord. Jaya, bliss. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So? Do you agree or not? (laughter) We welcome scientific knowledge. We don't say that scientific knowledge should be stopped, but it should be utilized to glorify the Lord. Then it is perfect. Otherwise useless. Means you don't get perfection. Perfection is when you scientifically describe the existence of God and His different energies, how they are working. And that is scientist, real scientist. Otherwise, theories, you can give your theory, I'll give you a theory... Temporary. That's all. So everything is there in Bhāgavatam, all knowledge, full knowledge. Vidvān bhāgavata-vādī. So vidvān means, vidvān means one who has learned Bhāgavata, Bhāgavatam nicely. He's vidvān, factually. So you do not read all these things?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Does this mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if the scientists of the world become little bit directed and they use their science to glorify Kṛṣṇa, then they're actually practicing yoga?
Prabhupāda: That is success. Their scientific knowledge will be successful when by scientific knowledge they prove that God is the origin of the universe. That is success. That is... Another verse you can read. Idaṁ hi puṁsas... No. That...
Find out the verse.
Prabhupāda: Smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. Bhaktiś cen nava-lakṣaṇā. Bhakti is demonstrated in nine different symptoms. So vandanam, offering prayers, that is bhakti.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it required for them to have a spiritual master to guide them?
Prabhupāda: Certainly. These rascals, the priest, they do not guide them. They are also fallen. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice. If they follow. So many times they asked me. "Yes, if you follow your Christian religion, you'll be perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu proved devotional service from Koran. Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: The Khān Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it requires the devotee who can explain from any godly literature about God. How rascal they are! "Jesus Christ ate fish. Therefore we shall maintain big, big slaughterhouse." Just see the argument. Then, in the Bengali, mosa makta kanan (?). There was a mosquito, and one is asking, "Bring a cannon." "Bring a cannon." Mosa makta kanan. Jesus Christ ate somewhere. There was no food available to eat, might have. Accepting he ate, but that, does it mean that you have to maintain slaughterhouse? Just see. And besides that, he might have done anything. He's powerful. He can eat. Therefore the other day I said, "He can eat the whole world." But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction. That is Christianity.
Prabhupāda: Now, sometimes he is going this side, sometimes goes that side. Sometimes he says, "Mass of people," and again he says, "Not the number of people." What is mass of people? That is the number of people. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says, for example, he can see the mass of people in Italy, they are Catholic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be impressed by the Catholic philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Now, now, we have to... He was comparing that the mass of people, they take to Ramakrishna. That I have proved. They're not, the mass of people, not at all interested... That I have proved. That is my answer. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said he was not saying that thousands of people were following Ramakrishna...
Prabhupāda: What is the mass of people mean?
Deshimaru: But what do you know about the soul leaving the body? Maybe when the body leaves the soul, the soul also dies.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: The point is that body and soul are two things.
Deshimaru: I think it is same thing.
Prabhupāda: You think, but how you can prove?
Deshimaru: How you can prove that the body...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot prove. When the soul is gone...
Yogeśvara: He's asking how can we prove our point?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I can prove that the body is dead because the soul is gone. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says, "Oh, I can also say that when the body is dead, the soul is dead."
Lady (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: Last night, at the conference hall, this lady heard your lecture about how the soul reincarnates in different kinds of bodies. So she wants to know how is this possible because in the West, our understanding is that the animal forms do not possess a soul.
Prabhupāda: How does..., she can prove that she does not, it does not possess a soul.
Pṛthu Putra: She just doesn't understand. She does not say that. She does not understand.
Prabhupāda: No. She admits man has got soul, and animal has not soul.
Yogeśvara: See, what she says this is the traditional western idea.
Prabhupāda: But that idea is wrong.
Prabhupāda: If one cannot understand about this minute particle, then what he'll understand of the Supreme? In the laboratory, if you can test a little sample, just like take a little sea water, analyze, you chemically test, then you can understand what is the composition of the sea water. But if you have no knowledge even a small drop of sea water, how you'll understand the sea, what... That is their position. They do not understand even the sample of spirit soul, as we are. Simply they are trying to cover it. "There is no soul. There is no soul. Life is generated from matter." Although they cannot prove it. A fool's paradise. The fools, rascals, they are explaining the living force in some way, and other fools are accepting. This is the position of western countries, Europe and America. It is a fool's paradise. It is paradise, certainly.
Professor Durckheim: May I put one question to this? How do we know that the plant, the flowers and so on do not suffer when we take them away?
Prabhupāda: No, they have also sensation. They have sensation when you pluck it. That is proved by scientists, Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose. The trees have got sensation.
Professor Durckheim: So that's what I mean. So if we kill plant or tree...
Prabhupāda: No, we don't kill. You take the fruits.
Professor Durckheim: We cut it.
Prabhupāda: That is the difference. And therefore they are rascals. No intelligence. Intelligence is there, but it is so covered that it is almost like trees. Trees are also intelligent because it is life. There is intelligence. You will see one tree is growing. If there is wall, it will grow like this. Have you seen it?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. And it is proved by science. Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he has got institute. A machine records how a tree feeling. You cut one tree. How it is feeling pain, that is recorded in the machine.
Haṁsadūta: They also hear sound. They made some experiment that when they grow plants with music, they grow more.
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see.
Satsvarūpa: Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord.
Prabhupāda: This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection.
Prabhupāda: Very much afraid, yes.
Hṛdayānanda: There is one great scientist when I was a student, and he was trying to prove how there was no God, and he was so nervous, sometimes he could hardly speak he was shaking so much. (laughter)
Vīrabāhu: Oh, yes, that is what happens. When one starts speaking of God, they just...
Prabhupāda: So long you have not solved the four prominent miserable condition of life, birth, death, old age and disease, you cannot say there is no God. There is controller who is forcing you to accept these conditions. Therefore there is authority. How you can avoid this?
Vīrabāhu: There was this great scientist. His name is Nernst. He said that everything was infinite. That the universe, everything, was eternal, that this universe was eternal. So he got very mad, very vexed because another scientist was telling him, this was, a young scientist was proving that the universe has a time, a specific time, and it will finish.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that does not require a great scientist. Anything in this material world which has got a beginning, it has got end. We can experience from our body. The body has got a beginning; therefore it must have an end. Anything which has beginning, there must be end. This is our experience. You take anything material. This tree, it has got a beginning; it has got end.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Recently there were some journals that came out. The title is called "The Origin of Life." I will bring in school when we discuss... It started about from last year. And they have got an international association of scientists, and they discuss about the origin of life. And then... I wrote a letter to the editor of that journal, and they replied me that they're going to have another meeting, international meeting, in Japan in 1977. And there will be several meetings in Europe in the coming years. So their aim and object is to prove that life started from chemicals. It is a big group, all international scientists. So he asked me to become a member of a research group.
Prabhupāda: So you become member and protest, "No," and prove. You just become the opposite.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I also asked whether they...
Prabhupāda: Don't say, "Yes, it is all right." No, don't say. That will be your duty.
Prabhupāda: No, what is nature? That you cannot explain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the answer, theirs. When we ask the scientists...
Prabhupāda: But what is this nature?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the nature is not understood.
Prabhupāda: You see? That means you are rascal. You have not understood. You have no knowledge. As soon as you cannot explain, you prove your foolishness, that's all. That is not scientific answer, "chance," "nature." What is the nature? Who is conducting nature? How the nature is going on so nicely?
Rūpānuga: You said before they were acting as teachers, but actually they are still students.
Prabhupāda: That means they are not in knowledge. That I am speaking, the barking dog. First of all make experiment, produce life. Then come and say. Otherwise don't bark like a dog, imitation. Simply big, big words. Produce. Our theory is that... In the śāstra it is said harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nās... (CC Adi 17.21). That practical proof we are giving, that these Europeans, Americans, they are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and how they are coming out, this practical proof. They did not know five or six years ago what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa's name. But we are taking the conclusion of the śāstra: in this age, if one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, he becomes spiritualized. That is becoming, practically. It is not theory. How so many devotees are in this Atlanta, here? Anywhere, wherever we have started, how they have become devotee? Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You follow this formula and you will become God conscious." That is being practically proved. It is not theory. So that is Vedic knowledge. You adopt Vedic knowledge and get the result, not that "This ammonia, this chemical, that chemical, but I cannot do anything." The rascal said, "That I cannot say." You...
Prabhupāda: He asked him, that rascal chemist, that "If I give you the chemicals, can you manufacture life?" That time he said, "No, that I cannot say." Why do you say like that? In the beginning, in New York, that store front, the Satsvarūpa is with..., and Hayagrīva and... And you chant simply. You were also there. So this chanting is proving efficient. That is Vedic knowledge. It is not theory. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not theory or mental speculation. It is a fact.
Prabhupāda: The other fools, they can give some respect, but we are not going to do that. We say, "You will never be able." You can say. This rascal, we can give some knowledge, that "Your this attempt will be failure," because we know life cannot be created. How he will create? We know the formula, na jāyate. So how this rascal will be able to create? I am not a scientist, but on the strength of Bhagavad-gītā's assertion, na jāyate na mriyate. "Neither it is created; neither it dies." So if somebody wants to create, then at once we shall call him a fool. We have got test tube. Very boldly we shall say. Now let them prove that can he create. This is our position. So Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he has got very strong position. He speaks just what Kṛṣṇa speaks. That's all, finished.
Prabhupāda: Take the index, otherwise how you will find out?
Rūpānuga: The index.
Prabhupāda: This I want. You are nicely educated. Now by dint of your education, you prove that background is Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Then your education will be perfect. Otherwise you are one of these fools and rascals, that's all. The particular type of education, mathematics, chemistry, physics, what you have learned after working so hard, now you should by your educational-departmental education—you prove that the background is Kṛṣṇa. Then your education is perfect. That is the verse, idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā.
Prabhupāda: Absolute, that is absolute.
Satsvarūpa: "Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by so doing have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord."
Prabhupāda: That is perfection. If you can write this book nicely all together, it will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa will bless you and help you.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the field where the scientists are trying to prove that life is originated from matter, this type of research work. I called the director of that institute a couple of days ago and I told him I wanted to look around. And he told me that we need a formal application in order to visit that center so I'm going to make. (to guest:) Ordinarily in there, what do they do?
Guest (1): There are a number of projects and there are a number of disciplines in which people work. Mine is experimental nutrition.
Prabhupāda: So you are also believing that life comes from matter?
Guest (1): Want me to give examples...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to take knowledge from the perfect. Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13)." You have to take that knowledge. You cannot say you are perfect and you'll say, "May not have." And what is this knowledge, "May not have"? Say definitely and prove it, scientifically. That is knowledge. "Perhaps," "May not," "May be," these are not knowledge.
Guest (1): Just to give one example, these days the science experiments have conclusively done that a particular egg can be in the body of the womb, can be manipulated into either a male or a female.
Prabhupāda: Because it gives milk.
Guest (1): But there are a lot... Buffaloes give milk too.
Prabhupāda: Not so much.
Guest (1): In larger quantities.
Prabhupāda: But, milk means it is scientifically proven, milk means cow's milk.
Guest (3): But what about the killing of those cows which are not the milching type, as cows that are being bred here?
Prabhupāda: That is... Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be associated; otherwise how you can understand Kṛṣṇa?
Indian man: But this is not the only association where one can go in for...
Prabhupāda: This is the only association for understanding Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world.
Indian man: But can you prove that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out another association like this.
Indian man: No, but then...
Prabhupāda: (Aside to devotee:) You come here. I do not follow the accent, you hear and tell.
Guest: What would be important was Kṛṣṇa teachings. One must, could not be confined to any one period of time. He is incarnation of God and somebody who was talking for the truth and in the name of the truth, and... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...fact is that if you have got different views about Kṛṣṇa, then you cannot prove that from the Bhagavad-gītā. That you cannot prove. If you take Bhagavad-gītā, then you must present it as it is. Don't distort it. You may have got some idea, but you explain that idea in your different book. But don't place it as the explanation of Bhagavad-gītā. That is not very good. If you have got different theory, you can write in a different book. But we cannot permit or do not like that as the commentary of Bhagavad-gītā you will place something different.
Guest: And what is the ultimate goal of tapasya?
Prabhupāda: Tapasya means that by his knowledge... Suppose you are scientist. You prove by scientific way that here is the supreme scientist who has given us all these laws.
Guest: Is it possible to see the Supreme?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: With our own eyes?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Because they do not know how to stop this process. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You can stop this. But these... Again rascals. They'll not take the method. Kṛṣṇa said that "If you simply try to understand Me," janma, "why I appear and why I come here and work," karma..., "they are divine." The divine nature of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, disappearance and activities, if one can understand, then immediately he becomes free from this process. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). But the rascals will not do that. They'll misunderstand Kṛṣṇa. They'll misdescribe Kṛṣṇa. They'll think, "Kṛṣṇa is ordinary man." Gandhi will say that "I don't think there was any person living as Kṛṣṇa." And he is mahātmā. These things are going on. Mahātmā is proving himself as the greatest rascal. This is your mahātmā, and what to speak of the durātmā. So you are being guided by these...
Prabhupāda: No, that is because you are our student. Suppose our preachers meet the theologicians. How to prove that theology is not the means? Theology... Generally, you say it is speculation. So our point is that nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena. The ātmā, Kṛṣṇa, cannot be understood or approached, pravacanena, simply by logical arguments.
Prabhupāda: Everything comes from God, but He's self-sufficient. That is God. That is the searching out God, that you search... You... Wherefrom you came? From your father. Then your father comes from his father, from his father. Go on, go on. When you reach one person—he does not come from any father; he is self-sufficient—then He's God. That is the definition of... If God also comes like you, from a father, then how He is God? He's like you. That is the difference.
Satsvarūpa: But they say that's not logically proved.
Prabhupāda: That is logical... Means you have no brain to understand. That's all. That is the distinction between God and ourself. We are caused, but He is cause of all causes. That is God. Otherwise, how you'll distinguish between you and God? You are caused, but He is not caused. He's causeless. If He becomes caused, then He becomes like you. Then how He becomes God? That is the distinction between God and ourself. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the beginning it is said, svarāt.
Rāmeśvara: Their argument is that matter is always in motion, that it is always moving.
Prabhupāda: Where is moving? This is moving?
Rāmeśvara: Well they say the atoms, the molecules, are always in motion.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all prove that this is moving. Then all, say all this nonsense. First of all, why it is not moving? This, this piece of earth, why it is not moving?
Viṣṇujana: They say it's moving very slowly. You can't see it moving.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Viṣṇujana: It's moving so slow, you can't see it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They never even think of these things.
Prabhupāda: When they are captured and cornered, they say, "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do that." Post-dated check. "You take this check. In future it will be paid." Who will accept that check?
Rāmeśvara: To that, they always say that in the past, man laughed at some scientific theories, and later they were proven...
Prabhupāda: It is not scientific. It is all rascaldom. What you are giving, that is not science, that is rascaldom. Why shall I accept it is scientific? Because you have no full knowledge. What you are giving, it is simply rascaldom. Jaya. (Bengali)
Indian: (Bengali)
Nalinī-kānta: So we say that one should live very simply, produce his own food, and chant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then avoid all problems.
Prabhupāda: No, smaller than atom there is. Atom is called paramāṇu. Then it is anugra paramāṇu, (?) smaller than the atom.
Devotee: Does that mean the electrons?
Prabhupāda: Whatever you say. But śāstra is there. (devotees laugh) Be convinced of your footing, (chuckles) otherwise you'll be defeated.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the other day we were talking about proving different assumptions through archeological findings.
Prabhupāda: That is also bogus. Archeological findings is bogus.
Devotee: He's saying that he has to create the market.
Prabhupāda: Good things, does it require...? That is propaganda. You have got some false thing, you have to make propaganda to prove it, that it is real.
Devotee: That is the proof it is false.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And this man has taken money for... And he cannot supply even maintenance for his wife and girl. You have seen Mālatī?
Devotee: Yes Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: ...There is no possible (?) Tell them, this United Nations Organization, that "You are all bogus. You cannot do it. Come to this platform, and you'll be able." They have proved themselves bogus for the last 25 years, I think. They started in 1947? Huh?
Devotee: 1945.
Prabhupāda: Forty-five. (To passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how many years they have...
Devotees: Thirty years.
Prabhupāda: Thirty years. Uselessly. Wasting money and time... (break) ...that this movement is very good. He goes step forward, simply by saying this, that "These people are doing very nice." Ajñāta sukṛti. Kṛta-puṇya-puñja.
Amogha: But in the Bible it says that God gave animals to the man.
Prabhupāda: For protection. Not for eating. Rascals. Bible does not say that you kill animals. Then Jesus Christ is a hypocrite. His commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill." If he allows killing, then why does he say, "Thou shalt not kill"? Then you prove that Jesus Christ is a hypocrite. Are you following a hypocrite? Nonsense.
Paramahaṁsa: So we understand. We will stop eating meat, but we can still eat fish and eggs. Because there are plenty of fish and plenty of eggs.
Prabhupāda: That is also better than killing animals.
Paramahaṁsa: We're trying. (laughter) There are some automatic machines.
Prabhupāda: Automatic is at the hand of the operator.
Śrutakīrti: Someone must turn it on and off.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no such automatic machine. It is impossible to prove.
Gaṇeśa: But we can see the operator of these small machines, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we cannot see the operator of this big machine.
Prabhupāda: Have you seen the operator in the power house?
Gaṇeśa: No.
Paramahaṁsa: But Gandhi also read the Bhagavad-gītā, and he made so many wonderful comments on the Gītā.
Prabhupāda: That wonderfulness is for the rascals and the fools. What wonderful he has done? He preached nonviolence, but he was killed by violence. That is his wonderful example. He preached the philosophy of nonviolence, which is impossible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa killed him by violence. This is his wonderful. And his foolishness was proved, that there cannot be nonviolence. So he was a fool.
Paramahaṁsa: But he himself was nonviolent.
Amogha: A lot of them will accept, "Yes, there is future after death," but...
Prabhupāda: That he does not know, what is that future.
Amogha: "Oh, yeah, we haven't discovered that right yet."
Paramahaṁsa: Many of them say we cannot prove there is any life after death.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this if proof. Just as the boy is there and the father is there, the boy is going to become father. This is future. Both of them are there. The boy is going to be the father, and the father is going to be the grandfather. Where there is no future? The rascals, they do not know, say that, but there is future. How can you stop it? The boy is going to be father, the father is going to be grandfather. This is future.
Prabhupāda: Your so-called science is also belief. You believe in one way, we believe in another way. And if you call it science, then it is also science. If you call your belief as science, then why shall I not call my belief as science? Your is also belief. You have never gone to the moon, and you are talking of so many things about moon. That is your belief.
Amogha: But they say with science they can prove so many things.
Prabhupāda: We can also prove. You cannot prove. Just like you say the life is made of chemicals. You prove it. Take chemicals and make a life, then it is true. Otherwise it is a humbug. Why do you say like that, that life is made of chemicals? You cannot prove it.
Amogha: I do not say that life is made of chemicals.
Prabhupāda: They say.
Amogha: They say. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, these rascals say.
Amogha: But they say they can prove that there are chemicals...
Prabhupāda: You prove it. You take the chemicals and prove-produce life. Why do you talk nonsense? First of all prove. You did not produce a life, even an ant, in the laboratory, and still you say life is a combination of chemicals. Why do you say like that? Challenge them.
Gaṇeśa: We cannot see souls, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It appears that matter comes from matter, or life comes from matter. We cannot see the soul.
Prabhupāda: You cannot see, but you can perceive. If life comes from matter, then when there is a dead body, put matter and make it alive. Or put chemicals. Chemical is also matter. Make him alive.
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all this is my challenge: that here is a dead body, so bring some chemicals. Just like a motorcar stopped for want of chemical, petrol. So you bring petrol and it will be started. Similarly, you bring some chemical and start it again.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, that will require some time to find the chemicals.
Prabhupāda: That means you fool. You are talking nonsenses. You do not know what is that chemical. You prove yourself a rascal.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, we accept that we don't know, but we are trying to learn.
Prabhupāda: Then if you don't know, why do you talk nonsense? First of all you know, then talk. That is science.
Amogha: But the way we built this civilization and technology...
Prabhupāda: It is not civilization. It is animal. You are eating meat, and you are civilized? The tigers eat meat, the dogs eat meat. A human being, why should he eat meat?
Prabhupāda: Ātmā, yes, soul is ātmā. And the soul of the soul is God, Paramātmā.
Guest (2): Is it possible for us to communicate with plants?
Prabhupāda: With...?
Paramahaṁsa: With plants. Is it possible for us to communicate with plants?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they have done. Sir Jagadish Candra Bose in Calcutta, Bose Institute, he has proved—he has got machine—that they feel pains and pleasure, which is recorded in the machine. If you pluck one leaf, they feel. Immediately it is recorded in the machine.
Guest (2): Could I come back to that eating of meat? Related to this alive, soul, matter. Aren't you in a sense eating another soul too if you're eating vegetables? Not only if you're eating meat?
Amogha: On Christmas day.
Prabhupāda: Motor buses were floating. Is that law of gravity? Air, different adjustment of air. If Kṛṣṇa desires, simply by air this whole city will be devastated. The other day we saw so many trees fell from (New?) Kurukṣetra. All trees and houses will be smashed within half an hour if some hurricane is sent. Poking nose in the affairs of God. They'll simply try to prove that there is no God. This is their attempt. And they say "nature." What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, machine. The authority is God, Kṛṣṇa. So I have given the right name, fourth-class men, not even third class. All fourth class. Śūdra. Śūdra and less than śūdra. This is the whole pack of population at the present moment. First-class man, his definition is there: śama, dama, tapa, śaucam, titikṣā, ārjavam, jñāna, vijñāna, āstikyam. That is first-class. They are snatching a motorcar mechanic as first class. Because he knows some mechanical arrangement how to do it, he is first class. Such things are being done by the demons. Machine or wonderful building, these are done by the demons. Now to begin? Time will come(?)?
Śrutakīrti: You wanted to shave your head? Yeah?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit: People have always obeyed God.
Prabhupāda: They'd kill. Instead of loving, they kill, so they must suffer.
Jesuit: But it's not proved that the way of suffering is to come back in another form which is the theory of transmigration of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Just like you're in this apartment, you can go to another apartment and that apartment may not be exactly like this. It may be better or it may be worse. Similarly we have entered, find out the tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ.
Prabhupāda: Because we follow the standard. Just like a small child. He follows his parents, and he knows, "My parents are there." Therefore he has no worries. Is it not?
Dr. Copeland: Well, no. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: So we shall remain like a child, being protected by our predecessor. Then there is no worries. And if you want to manufacture something of your concocted brain, then there is worries. Just like Gandhi. Gandhi wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā, which is impossible. Therefore he had worries, because he wanted to prove something which is not in the Bhagavad-gītā, and still, he took Bhagavad-gītā as evidence.
Dr. Copeland: But my point is there are other texts as well as Caitanya's texts.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Unless you are ripe old age. At least up to fifty years. What is your age now?
Devotee: Um, twenty-eight.
Prabhupāda: Twenty-eight. So up to fifty years you remain gṛhastha and take care of wife, children. Work honestly and attend the... You prove an ideal gṛhastha. That will be very nice. Don't change your mind.
Devotee: So they'll be able to take care of the situation there by themselves?
Prabhupāda: Who?
Devotee: In Hong Kong?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is making the theory that life has come from chemicals by chemical combination, chemical evolution. Darwin's theory is also of that. This is their... Big, big scientists, they are so fool that life has come from matter. Where is the proof? He was lecturing in California University, and there was one student. He is my disciple. He challenged him that "If you get the chemicals, whether you can manufacture life?" That answer was, "That I cannot say." Why? You are putting this theory, that life has come from chemicals. So science means observation and experiment. Now experimentally prove that the chemicals have produced a life.
Guest 1: They're trying. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No, no. They have got their different orbits.
Guru kṛpā:. This is real science, to know these facts.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru kṛpā: So how can you prove that?
Prabhupāda: Vedic literature. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. What is that? That is another island?
Devotee: That's the Kaneohe marine base.
Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?
Prabhupāda: Then that's all right. How you are supreme? You cannot create like that. How you are supreme? Simply by claiming "I am supreme"?
Gurukṛpa: Well, if they discover a theory, then they think that that makes them supreme.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Theory you may discover, but you have not created. That's a fact. That's a fact.
Bali-mardana: They refuse to accept God because they can neither prove nor disprove.
Prabhupāda: But no, no. God you prove or disprove, but first you have to accept that you have not created.
Bali-mardana: Yes.
Siddha-svarūpa: There's a danger that we become overly concerned with debating on them.
Harikeśa: So our preaching platform should be is that "You don't know." We can say, "You don't know" or "We don't know. Why shouldn't one accept what we say over what you say?" We should just prove that we...
Prabhupāda: No, accept or not accept, the whatever is description there, in Bhāgavatam, we are accepted.
Harikeśa: So we should not try to meet these scientists on any scientific platform? Rather, on...
Siddha-svarūpa: Why not on the platform of not being the body? Why should you...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: So actually it's useless to try to give any more proof other than that.
Prabhupāda: That is sufficient for an intelligent man. That is sufficient.
Paramahaṁsa: So if a scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the Kṛṣṇa conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of the soul?
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Not necessary.
Paramahaṁsa: Better if he just...
Prabhupāda: It is not that if we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof, not that all the people of the world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is stated by Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove...
Prabhupāda: No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.
Harikeśa: So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees.
Prabhupāda: When they come first of all, you have to inform them that "We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?"
Harikeśa: This psychologist has become a devotee.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane. Then he has come. That is another thing.
Harikeśa: But still he wants to try and prove Kṛṣṇa consciousness through this psychological testing.
Prabhupāda: No, what he will prove, psychological...? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.
Bali-mardana: What they want to know is the effect of the, the effect on the mind of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.
Bali-mardana: That is what they are studying.
Siddha-svarūpa: Right. So that when you don't fit into their preconceived idea...
Prabhupāda: It is called, in logic it is called prititio principia(?). So it is useless.
Paramahaṁsa: In our movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have that group of scientists who are preparing that book, The Origin of Life, but will they actually be able to prove anything through that book?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Paramahaṁsa: Will they actually be able to prove anything by scientific presentation or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is science. If you can prove it by experiment. Otherwise, it is not science, theory.
Paramahaṁsa: But how can they prove the existence of the soul through experiment?
Prabhupāda: No, first of all let them prove by chemical composition they can produce life. Then we shall talk of soul. First of all let them, in the laboratory, let the chemicals be mixed up and produce a small ant. Then we shall understand.
Siddha-svarūpa: We don't need to make experiments.
Harikeśa: They can make these little amoebas but they can't make ants.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, existing, but why you are in change? That is the question. "I am existing," that we say, but we are trying to solve the problem of changing. But this changing is not very happy, to die and again accept another body and remain to, in the womb of the mother to develop that body in an airtight condition. So why these foolish persons do not take it as very miserable? And with the risk of being killed by the mother. Nowadays their abortion and killing. So is it very nice life, that you die and you enter into the mother's womb to develop another body? And that also not secure. Is that very nice life? (break) Write many articles on this subject matter and prove them that "You are all fools." (break) ...major problem, they have left aside.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. Dr. Judah said in our whole course we can just defeat them, but we must know what they think also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that's all right. That you should know. They are advertised as big philosophers, so at least we can prove that they are not big philosophers. The big philosopher is Kṛṣṇa.
Bahulāśva: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a survey of these psychologists, young psychologists, and they asked them whether or not they would like to do research. And the vast majority of the psychologists said no, they don't want to do any research. They don't like to do research because it's all a joke. They don't prove anything. They figure it's a waste of time. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam:" You cannot become a philosopher unless you disagree with other philosopher." Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. (break) ...something drown?
Sudāmā: Yes, they destroyed an amusement park there, and that got stuck in the water.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Why destroy?
Dharmādhyakṣa: They did that to get insurance money?
Prabhupāda: (break) ...they are becoming disappointed in science, philosophy, amusement. That is good sign. (break)
Dharmādhyakṣa: ...we go to colleges, the young people that are working on Ph.D.'s, they are very... (laughs) They say, "We're doing all this research but you can't prove a thing." I ask them, "Well, this experiment, you know, what will it prove?" He says, "Well, it indicates this, it indicates that, but really doesn't prove anything."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) It proves only that he's a fool. That is the only...
Dharmādhyakṣa: I talked to a very nice Indian gentleman. He's a life member. He's a young Ph.D. in chemistry, Dr. Bhatt. He dedicated his Ph.D. thesis to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: Yes? So their miscalculations are due to their imperfect senses.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I told Mādhava dāsa in Atlanta that you had said that the sun is actually closer than the moon, and he immediately was able to prove that that is correct. He sat down and he, "Oh..." He was able to prove something by the way they are measuring... They are measuring the distance incorrectly in terms of bending light rays and straight light rays.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Brahmānanda: Sometimes the moon comes in front of the sun.
Prabhupāda: What is the front?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act.
Prabhupāda: The material disease means we have challenged Kṛṣṇa, God, "Oh, what is God? We can live independently." And that is material scientist. They are trying to prove, "There is no God. We can create everything in the laboratory." And that is their foolishness.
Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that.
Prabhupāda: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that: Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not?
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, that is called spontaneous generation and scientists have so-called proven that that cannot occur. It's called a folk myth or something like this, folklore, that birth can take place without the male and female union.
Prabhupāda: No. How it is coming from the bed, unclean bed. How it is coming the grass? They are also living entity. The seeds are already there. They are like egg. And as soon as there is watering then it is fructified and it comes. Similarly, the egg..., fermentation, what is called, fermentation?
John Mize: Fertilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience you can get. Just like God is describing Himself. Now, why don't you take that? Your description may be defective because you are imperfect. But if God Himself is giving His, I mean to say, identification, why don't you take it? Not only gives description, He acts according to the description. When Kṛṣṇa was present, He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7), "There is no more superior element." He proved it when He was present. There was no more superior power than Him when Kṛṣṇa was present. In His opulence, in His richness, in His strength, in His education—everything, all topmost, Kṛṣṇa. All topmost. The proof is that because you get the topmost knowledge, therefore Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world, accepted, topmost knowledge. All scholars, all philosophers, all religionists, they read it.
Prabhupāda: If the God dies and ordinary animal also dies...
Dr. Judah: Yes, it was what they called "atheistic Christianity." (laughter) But as I say, I do not feel that this is representative of Christianity today. And I think that the very fact that this "death of God theology" did become so popular at one particular period is one of the particular reasons why more people have wanted, then have rejected this and have wanted to find some experience of God, find it in their lives to prove, as it were, that He does exist. I think this has been certainly one of the instruments that has caused people to try to seek the reality of God in various ways. In Sufism, I know, in Berkeley they're seeking God, and in the Vedānta and in many other of the different movements, some of them from India and some of them from Japan, particularly in the case of Zen Buddhism which has become very popular. And then, of course, there's always the Sokagaktii(?) in the Bay area which also is very influential among many of the university students, and which, of course, does chanting also. It's a form of bhakti in Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: Actually, nobody has got clear idea of God. This is the difficulty. Nobody knows. We can challenge them. Nobody knows what is God. We can challenge. (break) (in car)
Kirtirāja: That's Hayagrīva's and Kīrtanānanda's friend.
Jayatīrtha: Dr. Henderson.
Kirtirāja: George Henderson, yes.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Kirtirāja: Right here, standing here. He just went like this to you. (break)
Brahmānanda: I asked him to prove mathematically that one minus one equals one.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...doing there?
Brahmānanda: Getting the clams.
Bahulāśva: He is going to eat them.
Satsvarūpa: As a brāhmaṇa, we have to be truthful. When in Hong Kong they asked you what you thought of Guru Maharaji, you said you could not help yourself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I said that he is a great cheat. What can I say? And it has been proved now. (laughter) I said in my book, Easy Journey to Other..., that this moon excursion is childish, and it has been proved now. Now they don't talk about the moon excursion because they are failure. So ten years ago or more than that, I said that it is only childish.
Prabhupāda: What is the example?
Sudāmā: That this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, actually it does work, it does make us purified.
Prabhupāda: "No. It works with you. It doesn't work with me," he will say. You have to prove that they are animals. How you will prove it?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By showing the activities of the animals and their activities to be the same.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to judge that "What is the difference between animal's activities and our so-called civilized man's activities?"
Sudāmā: When you compare them to the animals, then they become insulted.
Prabhupāda: Well, laws come... Wherefrom the laws come? It comes from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādyasya yataḥ. Everything, whatever you see, it has come from God. Otherwise where you get the idea? That is the definition in the Vedānta. Whatever you have experienced, that is coming from God, original idea from God. Janmādyasya yataḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā the same thing is said, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Whatever you see, you perceive, you experience, the original is from Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So we shall go? (break) ...them directly that "You are animal." And let him go to the court and we shall prove that he is animal. (break) ...them he is in bodily concept of life, charge him that "You are animal. If you think it is defamation, let us go to the court." (break) ...these isms, nationalism, Communism, socialism, this ism, these are all animalism, nothing but animalism. (break) ...big fish within the water, they are also eating the small fish, and these persons are engaged, the same business.
Prabhupāda: In that television?
Jayatīrtha: I came in late.
Brahmānanda: On the news?
Prabhupāda: No, no, the television. The lawyers were trying to prove handprints and so many things. The subject matter was that a drug-addicted boy killed a friend. Hm? (pause) What is this, some stool?
Jayatīrtha: This? It appears to be a leaf of some kind.
Prabhupāda: Oh, leaf.
Prabhupāda: So they said that "You are asking to go home but we will not be accepted." "Then what do you want?" "Now You marry us." "All right, come on." (laughter) Wholesale, sixteen thousand wives. This is Kṛṣṇa. We are not captivated by Kṛṣṇa, a Guruji Mahārāja. We know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then we accept He is God. He has proved Himself that He is God. Our Kṛṣṇa is not going to marry a society girl secretary. He is not so cheap.
Devotee: This Guru Maharaji claims to be God, but he had to go to childbirth class to learn how to have one child.
Prabhupāda: You should not talk about him, these rascals. Na tasya kāryam kāraṇam ca vidyate, na tasya samaḥ adhikaś ca dṛśyate. This is the definition of God, that he has nothing to do personally. When Kṛṣṇa kills the demons outside Vṛndāvana, He is not original Kṛṣṇa; He is Vāsudeva. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). When Kṛṣṇa is acting universally, that is Vāsudeva. Original Kṛṣṇa is always in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...can be solved by understanding these three items: God is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer; He is friend of everyone. They are acting just the opposite way: "I am the proprietor; I am the enjoyer; I am the friend. Because I am God." This is their... Everyone is becoming friend—ultimately proves to be enemy of the country because he is not friend. President Nixon took votes by pretending friendship, and later on, he proved enemy. This is going on. Everyone knows. Gandhi pretended to become friend, but he proved to become an enemy. Otherwise why he was shot down? Unless one thought him as enemy, why he was shot down? This is going on. Nobody can become friend except Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So, what did he say?
Bahulāśva: Yeah, he believes that there is soul and that you're not the body, and he's hoping that he'll be able to become more serious about studying Bhagavad-gītā to understand that more clearly.
Prabhupāda: So let him prove there is soul. That will be great service to the western world, if a scientist and philosopher, psychologist proves that "Here is soul."
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how should they set out to prove it, though? We've proved it by giving scriptural evidence. But how should a scientist do it?
Prabhupāda: No, we prove it as a living and dead man, we give that proof. What is the difference between this dead man and living man? What is losing? What is missing? This is the proof. If... I so many times spoken that son is crying, "My father is gone, my father." "Where is your father gone? He is lying here. So what is gone? You have not seen it." This is the proof. Why do you cry, "Father is gone"? Father is lying here. Why do you say, "gone"? So that means what is gone, you have never seen it. Now you perceive, "Yes, something was there. Now he is gone." This is the proof.
Bahulāśva: He says that... His name is Edgar Mitchell, and he was one of the men who went to the moon. But we talked, and he said... He thinks he has gone to the moon. But he said that when he was there, he had a religious experience, and he felt that there was a God. When he went to the moon, he had this experience. So when he came back, he was telling all his scientist friends what his experience was. So they became very afraid, and they kicked him out of the space project. They thought he had become a fanatic, religious sentimentalist, so they kicked him out. So now he has opened up an institute for noetic sciences or... It is some Greek word. It means like spiritual sciences. He wants to prove to the scientific world that there is God.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. He is good.
Bahulāśva: So we gave him a copy of Easy Journey to Other Planets and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and he's been reading that. He is friends with that other scientist, Wernher Von Braun, who gave that speech also saying that he feels that there is definitely God by his scientific studies. We also wrote him a letter, but we haven't gotten any response. Svarūpa Dāmodara prabhu wrote him also.
Prabhupāda: What he is?
Prabhupāda: 1890. (Bengali)
Lalitā: ...foreign exchange, for the development of India...(Bengali) ...that how it is... "Can you prove?" And yes. You can send immediately? Everything is in open.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have all the receipts with me from the bank transfers.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) This is meant for the executive head of the state. It is meant for. In the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter, it is stated,
Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājarṣayo. It is meant for the rājarṣis. So Indira is in the position of rāja. If she becomes a ṛṣi, then it will be successful. Then it will be successful. (Bengali) ...that "You have got the position of royalty. You become a saintly lady. Then your scheme will be all successful." That is required. That I can help, how to make her a ṛṣi.
Prabhupāda: The foolish man can say anything. (Hindi) How he becomes more than all the ācāryas, this rascal?
Indian man (5): My question is...
Prabhupāda: Your question is that he has proved. What he has proved?
Indian man (5): No, no. His point of saying is that...
Prabhupāda: Whatever he says, he is saying nonsense. That's it.
Prabhupāda: No, intellectual level you can. That is definition of God. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya... Parāśara Muni has given. That is God just like you try to understand one thing. We have got some experience that there is a rich man, but that rich man cannot say that "I am the richest man in the world." That he cannot say. So this richness is one opulence, but you cannot find anyone who can say that "I am the richest man." That is not possible. But if you find somebody who can say like that, and if he proves, then he is God. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya. That Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram: (BG 5.29) "I am the proprietor of everything," that Kṛṣṇa says. And He proved when He was present. He proved it. So therefore He is God.
Indian man (2): I say, in foreign countries, Swamijī, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot see?
Dr. Patel: Only the difference is that Mohammed is trying to worship nirañjana, nirākāra, and we...
Prabhupāda: No, no, not nirākāra. That is not...
Dr. Patel: Even Christianity considers His ākāra—"God has form."
Prabhupāda: No, Mohammed also has got... Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued in Koran. He proved there is kṛṣṇa-bhakti. He proved with the Pathans. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise the Christianity is just our way, I mean, absolutely Vaisnavism. It has been wrongly preached and wrongly initiated in India. That is why it has fallen to disrepute. Otherwise Christianity is just Vaiṣṇava-dharma. Nothing else, to my mind, the way I have studied, I mean the New Testament and all the Christian, all the things. Now, the sermon of Christ is nothing but the preaching of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: I never criticized. I simply said that positive side, God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That is real scientist. These are false scientists.
Actually the Supreme Lord is the source of everything. So if one is actually scientist, by his scientific explanation he will point out, "Here is the cause of all causes." By scientific knowledge he will point out that God is the origin of everything. Then his scientific study is perfect. But these rascals, they are doing the opposite, that "There is no need of God. Science is everything," although it is imperfect. That is their fault. Therefore they are rogues. They cannot prove; still, they will insist, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying," like that, and misleading people. General people, they are rascal and fools. If you mislead them, they will be misled. Śūdra, mūḍhas. They are to be educated. Instead of educating them, they are making them more and more fools and rascals. (break) There is utility, but they have no utility. There is some service; they carry some passengers. They are carried nowhere. Simply they mislead.
Prabhupāda: You are a scientist. How you can deny God? Then what kind of scientist you are? The Bible has done wrong. Throw it away. I have no objection. But you are scientist. How you can deny God? And that is our point. Come to this logic, that "How we can deny God?" You are speaking that from chemical combination life is formed. Do it in the laboratory. You cannot do it. Why you are propagating false propaganda? What kind of scientist? Then you are also to be kicked out. If Bible is to be kicked out you are also to be kicked out. Why you are claiming your position? You prove first of all. You combine chemical and produce a life. And you are making false propaganda, so you are to be kicked out. They say, "We shall do in future." And what is the future? Then why you are at present making false propaganda. Wait for the future. Post-dated check. "In future I shall pay." Who will accept this check? Any nonsense will accept.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...this is a fact, that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the topmost yoga, and preach it. This is a fact. Except we, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody knows anything—all mūḍhas. Any association, any religion—all mūḍhas. But you must prove yourself. Otherwise it will be bigotry. If you simply say that "We are only first class" without any knowledge... You have to defend yourself. There will be so many opposing elements. Then you become first class. Your position is first class, but you have to maintain it. Otherwise, they will say "religious fanatics." Any opposition party, you have to meet. That is required.
Devotee 2: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you mentioned that the trees, they also can see, (in a) purport. So I was wondering, do all the various species of life, are they fully equipped in some fashion or another with all the various senses?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Living being means possessing all the senses.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Absolute is sentient thou hast proved, impersonality calamity thou hast moved." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...tree in Hare Krishna Land, they are so beautiful, heḥ? And what is this?
Devotee 2: These are very short. (laughter)
Cyavana: They are also torn by the cyclone. The cyclone has pulled up all the big ones.
Indian man 3: These are different in Durban.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think that this is the most civilized that human beings have ever been, this modern so-called civilization.
Prabhupāda: Civilization... If you remain in a dog's position, is that civilization? I proved that you are in a dog's position. How can you refute the argument which I have put, that you are in a dog's position? Exactly the dog. Śva-viḍ-varaha. Dog's position, hog's position, camel's position, and ass's position. These four animals have been compared. Śva, viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, khara. And "I have been given vote." Yes, śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ. You are animal, and other animals, they are giving you vote. That's all. You are very much proud that you are minister, you have got vote, but who has given you vote? The same animal class. What is the meaning of your vote? Śva-viḍ... How selected words in the Bhāgavatam. Śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ.
Prabhupāda: He doesn't require? Then where...? But where do you get, you rascal? Where do you get this idea that without mouth one can speak?
Harikeśa: Well, all the energy can just flow any way He wants.
Prabhupāda: No, where you get this idea? You are manufacturing, but you are rascal, so your manufacturing has no value. First of all prove that without mouth one can speak. Where is that idea? Where you get this idea?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even when we preach to these Christians... There's one passage in the Bible that says that "Man is created in the image of God." So we show them that "This is God, Kṛṣṇa," and they say, "No, no, no, no, no, can't be." But still, the image is there, that man has an image, a likeness, to God. He has two arms. He has two eyes. But still, they can't accept if we say that Kṛṣṇa is God.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. They'll...
Prabhupāda: Then? Why does he say "extinct"? These cheaters, they cheat themselves and bluff others and mislead the people. This is their position. We want at least that people may not be bluffed by these rascals and waste their time. That we want, that much. They may say that "You are not scientist." Yes, I am not scientist, but I can request you that don't be bluffed by this nonsense. That much I can say. I can prove that he is a nonsense. Why you are wasting time after them? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)...their folly, European men. Where the American men will go? (laughter) Just see. (break) ...from India they made Indian center, and they conquered both sides—Far East, Middle East, Africa—with Indian soldiers. They organized Indian soldiers and Sikhs and Gurkhas, and they employed them for extending their empire. British soldier does not mean... Maybe two, one or two British commanders, but real soldiers were Indians.
Prabhupāda: So you can explain what I was talking.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So the idea is that now you have secular state because the religion, as it is being taught today, is seen simply as some kind of dogma that can't be proven, some kind of blind faith. But in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is giving scientific evidence, reason, how the existence of the soul can be proven. Religion means there must be soul. But people don't understand how soul is existing. They think it is simply beyond their conception or comprehension. Kṛṣṇa has made it so reasonable to understand the existence of the soul that any sane man would accept. For example, Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13).
Indian man (4): The real question between this statement of Mr. Professor and you is that what is religion and what is science. Unless the nature of science and religion defined...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Science is applicable to everyone.
Indian man (3): But when you use reason for proving your...
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the reason, that a child is becoming boy, a boy is becoming a young man, a young man is becoming...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But how can we prove Kṛṣṇa scientifically?
Prabhupāda: First of all let them prove their theory. Then we shall prove ours. We are proving. We have got our own way. But why they are speaking all this nonsense? First of all let him prove that he is genuine. Then our turn will be next. Ours is very easy. Kṛṣṇa said to sun-god, and sun-god said to his son, his son, his son. It is coming like that. Where is the difficulty? Again Kṛṣṇa says, "Now it is mismanaged. It is lost, so I am saying again to you Arjuna." So what Arjuna has understood, we are understanding the same way. How Arjuna understood it, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is the… We have no difficulty. But you jump over: "There is link," that "Once only from monkey came." What is this nonsense? We have to believe this? Has it any sense? And because Mr. Darwin is speaking we have to accept it? We cannot…
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? Because the rascals are thinking in some way, we have to believe that? First of all let them prove that they are sane men. They are all insane rascals. Why shall I take their words? We are taking words from Kṛṣṇa, who is accepted the Supreme by all the ācāryas, all the great sages. Why shall I go to this rascal Darwin? We are not so fools. We cannot accept.
Harikeśa: Well, the Bible is just some story. I mean, the Bible is just some story. Why should we believe that all of a sudden there was…
Prabhupāda: You’ll fall down. If you go very far, you’ll fall down. Just like a child thinks. Bible, so many have been proved not authorized. Therefore Bible is not authorized.
Harikeśa: So we had this religion, and everybody was saying that this was the correct way, the official policy. So everybody knew this was nonsense. So Darwin is very scientific, so we accept the science.
Prabhupāda: What is that science? He said, "By chance, once, nature came." Is that … ? That is not science. We don’t find, nature's way, by chance it comes. No. As soon as you talk something nonsense, your whole statement will be accepted as nonsense because you are nonsense. What is the value of your statement? This is our test. Once you say something nonsense, you are wholesale nonsense. That is our test. You cannot say, "I am sorry. It was incorrect," no. That is not allowed. Then your whole statement is incorrect. This is our… Harikeśa: Scientists are always doing that. They’re always saying that.
Harikeśa: Well, they’re the best we have. They’re the best we have. We have nobody. Who else is going to take care of us?
Prabhupāda: No, at least… We … just like we challenge, they cannot give answer. This should be proved. Then they will be proved that they are rascals.
Harikeśa: The whole scientific craze seems to be settling down anyway. It seems to be dying down.
Harikeśa: Even he says it was just a theory.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But now, Prabhupāda, they say that they have been to the moon, and we're saying that the moon is so far away. And they have their pictures also to prove it.
Prabhupāda: Picture you can manufacture here.
Harikeśa: And they have earth dust as if it came from the moon.
Harikeśa: And their dust does not reflect. They say the moon is reflective, but the dust and the pictures, it was all dark gray. No reflection.
Prabhupāda: So therefore if I say that they did not go to the moon, how they can support?
Harikeśa: They cannot prove. They are so clever and sophisticated with their nonsense, they can even make the astronauts believe...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked you to ask them, "Why Sunday first and Monday next?"
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very conceivable that they could have tricked everyone. They simply have a video. They go up in a space ship around. They simply show a film from the space ship back to the earth, how they were practicing in the Arizona desert and they collected some rocks and took it with them. It's very easy.
Harikeśa: The government is doing that all the time. They take contracts from people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. Therefore price is increasing daily. Formerly British government, in the beginning, to prove their honesty, as soon as you go to the currency for changing, they will offer you, "You want coins or paper currency?" So if you think that paper currency will be convenient, you can take. Otherwise, if you want coins, they will pay you.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Gold coins.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are mūḍhas.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Our verdict is final: "All rascals and fools." Therefore, when I ask these rascals, "Any question?" Stopped. (laughter) "Come on, any question?" What they will question? I challenge them, "Any question?" They know that "We have been proved as rascals." Yesterday, last night, I told that the aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś: (BG 2.11) "This is the position of everyone. Everyone is fool, rascal. He does not know what is the real problem of life." Nobody said that "Why you are calling everyone rascals?" In Montreal some Bengali gentleman said, "Swamiji, you are using very strong word, 'fools and rascals.' Can it be explained otherwise?" And "No, this is the only word, that you are all rascals and fools. This is the only word to be used." (laughter)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once said that anyone who has a material body is a rascal.
Harikeśa: Well, only some people commit suicide. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very happy. I have my car, my air conditioner...
Prabhupāda: That means you are fool number one. That means you are fool number one. As soon as you say, "I am happy," it is immediately proved that you are a rascal, fool number one.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is afraid of death. They don't like the idea of dying. Put if off.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, you cure that first of all; then prolong life that there will be no death. Then you prolong life is... Make some understand. Can go this side?
Harikeśa: So it's not possible that anyone's happy? There is no possibility of anyone being happy.
Prabhupāda: What is that "our theory"?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That the soul is the life force.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how can we prove that? How can we make the spirit soul appear?
Prabhupāda: How can you bring life force? Have you brought? Then how you can question this? If you have brought life otherwise, then you can question. As you cannot bring life otherwise, you have to accept this. This is the proof. Not only that: because the soul is there, therefore I am talking with you. I am replying your inquiries. And when the soul is not there, even the tongue is there, even the ear is there, I cannot hear you, I cannot reply you. (break) ...instrument is there by which I talk, why he cannot talk?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spirit soul is not present.
Prabhupāda: Learn it. At least mother should not be proposed for sex. This much you can learn. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. (break) ...two questions, that they have not gone to moon planet and they cannot make even a chicken egg, you make great propaganda.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The rascals will be proved that they're really rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're saying, "To make human being." First let them make an ant or an egg.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Then? (Bengali) "You cannot catch even nonpoisonous snake, and you are telling that 'I shall now catch cobra.' "
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone commits mistake. Anyone who is conditioned, he must commit mistake. This is our position, that anyone who is not liberated, he must commit mistake. We take knowledge from liberated soul, not from the speculators. That is the difference.
Cyavana: They prove their inadequacy by changing their theories every twenty years.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cyavana: They've proved that their brains are weak.
Prabhupāda: No, they have no brain. If it is going to change, then what is their brain? (break) Still, there are so many big, big Vedic astronomers. They never change.
Cyavana: The astronomers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. (laughter) He was telling me. Selling ticket. And if I say, "They are cheater, bluffer," they become angry. Just see. Actually they cheated and bluffed so many men. Now they say it is inhabitable. Why they sold ticket for going there? So many living entities there are, living within the sand, and they say there is no living entity. How they are eating? How they are sleeping? A small...
Cyavana: Millions of them. (break)
Indian man: ...airless, Swāmijī. Therefore we can't have the life there. They have proved that it is airless, waterless and so on.
Prabhupāda: How do you say there is no life? You see in the sand there are so many lives. So there, if it is desert, there are so many lives.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...ceptive tablet, sleeping tablet, or...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Waking tablets.
Prabhupāda: Waking tablets and so on, so on. Tranquilization tablet.
Brahmānanda: They had one tablet for pregnant mothers, and that tablet was used very much in Europe, and that tablet proved to be very harmful to the children that were born. They created terrible deformities amongst many, many children. So there was a tremendous lawsuit against the company. I think it was a German company.
Prabhupāda: What for the tablet was used?
Brahmānanda: Some vitamin for the pregnant mothers.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Thalidomide, yes?
Brahmānanda: In India. So is that a fact, that he went to India?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise how he came to Kashmir? He knew. And when he was in India his mother died. That Aquarian Gospel? Father and mother died.
Brahmānanda: In the book that Haṁsadūta published, of Christ, Kristos and Krishna, these things are there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is in the Aquarian Gospel. (Break) Dr. Wolf has said that he cannot accept from Krishna to Krista. Then, by that word, he has proved himself another rascal, because he does not know the Sanskrit way of philology. Sanskrit, there are vargas—ka-varga, ca-varga, ṭa-varga, ta-varga and pa-varga—five vargas. So Kṛṣṇa is in the ṭa-varga. Ṭa, ṭha, ḍa, ḍha, ṇa. So Kṛṣṇa, it can be replaced by ṭa also. (laughter) He does not know that, this rascal. That is the difficulty. These Western rascals, little knowledge, they think very good scholar. That is the difficulty.
Brahmānanda: He is very proud.
Cyavana: It's pleasant.
Prabhupāda: (Break) ...right time. I don't think he had many followers.
Cyavana: Very few.
Prabhupāda: Only twelve, and out of them some proved infidel.
Cyavana: Yes.
Brahmānanda: One betrayed him.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: One has to know what is enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be. We are utilizing it because we are fortunate. (break) ...explaining last night that earth, water, air, fire, they have come from Kṛṣṇa's energy. Can you explain how it has come? Any one of you. People may say that "You can say like that, but prove that the earth has come from Kṛṣṇa."
Devotee (1): You said last night... You mentioned a verse from the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8), that Kṛṣṇa is the source of everything.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is... Your scripture says, but I am a third person. Why shall I believe in your scripture? You prove. You are quoting from your own scripture. I don't take your scripture. You give me practical explanation how earth has come from Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (1): This is what Kṛṣṇa has left here five thousand years ago.
Prabhupāda: "That's all right. It doesn't matter. That doesn't matter."
Devotee (1): ...for your benefit, for everyone because you are part of Kṛṣṇa too.
Prabhupāda: That is your saying. You prove that.
Devotee (1): That's not my saying. That's the Supreme Lord's saying.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Indian man or Devotee (2): Like a child has to accept the authority of her mother to know about our father.
Harikeśa: Well, but verbal analogies don't prove the scientific a fact.
Prabhupāda: Then you are a rascal. Verbal analogy is proof. A small quantity, a small quantity producing; large quantity, large quantity producing. Where is the verbal? This is practical.
Prabhupāda: No. No. māyā means something false. Nobody makes anything. Everything is made by... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything. māyā is also created by Kṛṣṇa. So just like government creates police department. But police department is made for that person who violates the laws of God. The police department is creation of government. Similarly, māyā's business is to capture, arrest the criminal who has gone against God, capture him. Mūḍha janmani janmani (BG 16.20). Mam aprapyaiva. This is the arrangement. Nobody is independent. Everything. Therefore it is called sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. So māyā is also Brahman. māyā is also Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Why māyā is different from God? It is creation of God. Mama māyā, Kṛṣṇa says. Mama māyā. So how māyā can be... The difference is police cannot arrest the president. Now it has been proved in the law. The president, the prime minister, they cannot be interfered by the police or law. That is good judgment. If the head of the estate is also interfered by police, that does not look well. So this judgment is very nice. Therefore in English constitution the first word is "The king can do no wrong." You cannot accuse king of doing wrong. Whatever he does, it is all right.
Prabhupāda: So why shall I accept them?
Yaśomatīnandana: How can we prove the...
Prabhupāda: They cannot prove. Our proof is already there. They cannot prove. Why don't you take that point, that these rascals, they are contradictory to one another, so they cannot prove. Our proof is already there.
Yaśomatīnandana: That is what we should aim at. We should aim at "You cannot prove your..."
Prabhupāda: You cannot prove. You are contradictory. So why shall I accept you or he? We accept our own proof. That's all. First of all you agree amongst yourselves; then question us. You cannot agree. Why shall I believe you? One says that "He is wrong" and the other says "He is wrong." Now we say "You are both wrong. We reject you." Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Yaśomatīnandana: Someone was telling me, and I was telling that if somebody is not following the particular characteristic of a saintly person mentioned in the śastra, they cannot be accepted as a sādhu. So he was trying to prove that some sādhus, so-called, who eat meat, and who are drinking, they were actually great paramahaṁsas. And then I... He said that because in the previous ages there is mention of... In the śāstras there is mention that there were many ṛṣis and munis who were eating meat.
Prabhupāda: He knows them. He is such a rascal that he knows only and nobody knows. That is the verdict of this Rāmakrishna Mission.
Prabhupāda: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, (Hindi) as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. (Hindi) Even Mahatma (Gandhi). He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Goli(?), he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga ka mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). (Hindi) ...politics, politics, politics. (Hindi) ...nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṇa said, "You will die by violence. Nonviolence, there cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṇa. All right, you die." Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Our plan is the best because before meeting such catastrophes, go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the best. They are seeing the catastrophe, but they have no way to escape. That is the difference between them and ourselves. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...said that "There is no need of God, but there is need of girl, of a girl." He said that. Then what is the difference between a scientist and a dog? The dog also does not know what is God, but another female dog he wants. Huh? What is the difference? Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Then it is proved that he is no better than animal. The animal requires another opposite sex, but he does not know God. Then where is the difference?
Dr. Patel: And māyāvāda philosophy was necessary to dislodge the Buddhist, degenerated Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūnyavādi. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. They are practically the same. Buddhists say that everything is zero ultimately. And the Māyāvādīs say...
Dr. Patel: Māyāvādīs, sir, have been proved that if everything is zero, who sees the zero? Who sees the zero?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...Digvijayi. And when he came to Nabadwip, then he was defeated by a boy, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nimāi Paṇḍita.
Dr. Patel: The ancient times, in Śaṅkarācārya's time, Kashmir was supposed to be the...
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the evidence of His scholarship in the argument with Keśava Kāśmīrī and Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Two places He has proved Himself as greatest scholar of the.... Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...read that portion, ātmarāma ca munayo?
Prabhupāda: "Sell well." You know he is "sell well" man. (laughter)
Mahāṁsa: Sell a brick for the temple. Well, one person got the book, and he came the next day and he wanted to become a member. He was convinced. And Acyutānanda says that this is for the atheistic people who cannot understand God, so here we are proving scientifically that God exists and how Kṛṣṇa is the supreme scientist. So materialists, there are so many materialistic people, they always like these kind of books, so they are buying.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The next book will also be a big hit, I think, that these scientists are preparing.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Ranganath, yes.
Mahāṁsa: And one day one of our regular devotees, he went to see him and said, "What about in America there are so many people, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?" So he says, "In America also there are many fools." So he is blaspheming like this, how can we cooperate with such people?
Prabhupāda: No, we cannot cooperate. But if there is meeting we can prove them that they are fools. (laughter) That's all. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Eventually they're going to try to have men with two heads. They first experiment with animals and then try it on men.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Rāvaṇa had ten heads, and he was killed in spite of ten heads. Still, he could not save himself from the hands of Rāma, although he had ten heads. He thought that "I have now ten heads. Who can be more intelligent than me?" And still, Rāmacandra proved, "Yes, I am better intelligent than you." (break) ...Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan?
Tejās: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...even though we're here. Kalākendra.
Prabhupāda: What is that, here?
Prabhupāda: Why? Why don't you take permission from the court?
Alanath: No. It's not possible.
Akṣayānanda: Have you applied?
Alanath: They have very strict laws. It's also been applied for.
Prabhupāda: No, you have to prove: "This is very important book of knowledge, so allow us a special."
Alanath: It's especially different if foreigners try to sell a book there. And we have... Like in Austria we have no Austrian devotees there.
Akṣayānanda: They think it's an invasion.
Prabhupāda: So what is the use of it? Anything made by rascal, is that perfect?
Harikeśa: Well it's better than some mythological book!
Prabhupāda: No, book also, you write book and you want to believe, others your book. That is also book. Why do you write scientific book?
Harikeśa: Well they're proven, those other books...
Prabhupāda: What is proven? You cannot say what is the chemical there, wherefrom came. Is that proof? "We cannot say." Is that proof?
Harikeśa: Well we know how they interact. We may not know how they got here but we know what they do once they are here.
Prabhupāda: By inductive reason you cannot reach the truth perfectly.
Harikeśa: Because it's beyond the material creation and you have to use the material senses and mind to understand. It's not possible.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, our point is deductive. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfect.
Harikeśa: So first prove the existence of God and the existence of the spirit soul...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: ...and then, they'll just have to explain...
Prabhupāda: And then it's creation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Pisa tantrya, under the laws of God or nature, everyone is tied, hands and legs, and he's thinking independently, "I can do that."
Dr. Patel: But slowly and slowly, sir, the modern science is trying to prove that sanātana dharma, the existence of God everywhere. Which in our times, if we respect scientists for their...
Prabhupāda: "They are trying to prove" means so long they are rascals...
Dr. Patel: They are rascals. I quite agree with you. You have caught my rascals. (both laughing)
Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "progressing," that means they are rascals. Unless one is rascal, what is the meaning of progress? Hm? Rascal requires progress.
Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?
Harikeśa: He said that because Lord Śiva was, ah, excuse me, Rāvaṇa was a devotee of Lord Śiva, that in order that Lord Rāmacandra could kill Rāvaṇa, He worshiped Śiva.
Kīrtanānanda: He wanted to take permission of him, so they say. Rāma wanted to take permission from Śiva...
Prabhupāda: So Śiva is so rascal that he gave permission? That means they are trying to prove Śiva is a rascal. (devotees laugh) Because he gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use of his, of one becoming Śiva's devotee? If such a rascal that one can take his permission to kill his devotee, so what is the use of becoming a devotee of such a rascal? Huh?
Harikeśa: He protected Bāṇāsura.
Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? That means that proving that Śiva is a rascal. He gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use? Then nobody should become Śiva's devotee. That is the conclusion. Because he gives permission to somebody else to kill his devotee. They are trying to prove Lord Śiva is a rascal. What do you think? Huh? If I want your permission, please give me your permission, I shall kill your son, and if you say, "Yes, I give my permission," then are you not a rascal? By this example they are making Lord Śiva a rascal, that he has no common sense even.
Prabhupāda: Then he remains the same animal, cats and dogs. There is no advancement. Therefore you see despite so many rascal philosophers in the Western countries, they simply fight and bomb and cheat and politics, diplomacy. The same—on the surface of the coconut, not inside. So you have to prove that "All of you are rascals. You do not know where to get pleasure." They're missing that point. All rascals, they're putting new philosophy, thesis. So what is the value of that thesis? He does not know. It requires expert. Just like somebody has told: "In this land, there is gold." So somebody's digging here, somebody's digging there, somebody's digging there. And they are, do not find gold, and struggling. But one expert, what is called, soil expert?
Harikeśa: You so completely destroy the opposition, it's very hard to say anything more.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you have to prove. You can eulogize your Guru Mahārāja, but you have to learn it and face the public and be strong to defend yourself. That is success. Not by praising your Guru Mahārāja. You'll praise your Guru Mahārāja. That is not very difficult. But be victorious to the opposing elements. Then you will praise your Guru Mahārāja nicely. At home, you can praise your Guru Mahārāja, and Guru Mahārāja be satisfied, "Oh, my disciples are praising me." That is not very.... That is good. Respectful. That is the qualification. But you have to fight. Then your Guru Mahārāja will be glorified.
Harikeśa: The problem nowadays though is that I met some of these Socialists on the train, and I would ask them, "What is your philosophy?" and they would just smile and...
Prabhupāda: Not unknown. It is unknown to you. But known to us. If it is unknown to you, you take, you know it from me. That is real knowledge. Why you persist that "It is unknown"? It should remain ever unknown? Why shall I take from anyone else? That's a fact. Either you answer what is that element which is missing so that the body is now dead. Simply your denial is obstinacy. That is dog's obstinacy. Then you are like a dog. You answer that: "This is the reason." Make experiment; prove it. Then you are right. So long you cannot do it, simply denying, that is dog's obstinacy. If you, as you say, there is no soul, it is chemical combination, so bring the chemicals and put him into life. Then your statement is right. You cannot do it and simply persist. This is doggish. You are calling a lump of matter your father, your child, your relative, and when the soul is gone, you say, "Oh, my father is gone." Why your father is gone? He's lying there on the bed. The same coat, pant, face, ear, eyes. Why do you say, "My father has gone"? What is this nonsense? So that chemical combination is your father? Bring your father again, chemical combination. Hmm? What is the answer? Some foolish, rubbish thing, presentation, will it be accepted as knowledge?
Hariśauri: A law means there has to be some compliance to a higher authority.
Prabhupāda: So discuss all these nonsense propositions.
Harikeśa: Somebody...? (break)
Prabhupāda: He has clearly proved that Darwin is a fool. He's wrong. He has not written the word "fool," but he's wrong.
| Page Title: | Prove (Conv. 1974 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, JayaNitaiGaura |
| Created: | 23 of May, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=148, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 148 |