Svarūpa Dāmodara: In one of the articles in Back to Godhead, I think Dharmādhyakṣa, he uses different words for these five elements. So we are going to use these elements in our book also, so we wonder, he says for fire "radiant energy" instead of fire. I think it may sound little more...
Rūpānuga: They think this is so simplistic, you know, mythological-type breakdown, oversimplification. So he used different words, fire he said "radiant energy," water he said "liquidity." What did he say for earth? "Solid matter" he said for earth, and air, "gas." And what did he say for ether? "Space." So we thought, we were wondering if these were acceptable terms to use.
Prabhupāda: That you can do.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I, actually I discussed this point last time, but still I want to make it clear. The difference between life and matter again...
Prabhupāda: Life and matter, is, we already explained very clearly. There is no symptom of matter in life. Everything is detailed. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi. Negative way. "It is not this."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But to feel it, to see it...
Prabhupāda: You cannot bring it to any material platform. Everything is denied.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now to make a simile or comparison, we found from our experience in science that matter itself is rather very simple. It is composed of simple patterns and simple forms and structures. But now when this matter is touched by life or matter in association with life, is actually very complex in terms of molecules. It comes to big molecules, and the molecules not only big. It's very complex, highly complex.
Prabhupāda: You can understand, just the one grain of poison, potassium cyanide. You touch on your tongue, immediately whole body becomes poisoned. How the molecules spread immediately?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does it react? Potassium cyanide? It blocks the oxygen path? That's what science says?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the poison action immediately spreads all over the body.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise, why is it happening like that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also material. Now how much powerful is spirit soul, you can just imagine. If one grain of matter has got so much potency, how much potency has got the spirit.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But then somebody may ask that why that cyanide..., cyanide is just material. But now in the living body the spirit is there, but how is spirit affected by...
Prabhupāda: Spirit is unable to live. The condition changes. Poison means the condition changes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So cyanide is more powerful than the spirit.
Prabhupāda: No. Powerful, this is different element. Powerful, it is, certainly, because it is moving the whole thing. Powerful, that particular body is destroyed. But the spirit soul, there are so many, otherwise how the germs are coming? It is not powerful.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When cyanide is introduced the body becomes unsuitable.
Prabhupāda: For a particular soul.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now my point, coming to this complex form, now matter it is understood easily in terms of science, when matter is associated with life, then comparing this...
Prabhupāda: Then the matter works. Otherwise it has no working capacity. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). The material world is working on account of the presence of the spirit soul.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: From here, from this experience, we are extending that the spiritual world is, spirit itself is...
Prabhupāda: It's different from material world.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Complex.
Prabhupāda: It has nothing to do with the material world.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this valid to conclude that spirit, spiritual world, or life is very complex?
Prabhupāda: Not complex, it is simply spirit. In the material world it is complex. In the spiritual world, it is simple.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it all right? Is it understood?
Sadāpūta: Spirit means completely different from matter.
Rūpānuga: The whole idea is that the matter, where it's not touched by spirit, it's not very complicated. When there's life, then you have such a complication like a body. The human body is very complicated because life is there. Without life...
Prabhupāda: No, just like a machine, it can be complicated. But as soon as you put the plug, gada-gada-gada-gada comes. But the electricity is not complicated, the machine is complicated.
Rūpānuga: So it doesn't work unless there is some....
Prabhupāda: Without electricity it does not work. But the machine is complicated, not the electricity.
Rūpānuga: One thing is that the machine, in this example, gets complicated or it becomes...
Prabhupāda: Complicated means it is made in different parts with matter, that's all. But it cannot work without the electric power.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the conclusion is that matter, when touched by life or spirit, actually it becomes complicated.
Prabhupāda: Not complicated, it is already complicated. It works.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, matter itself is not complicated. Matter itself is not complicated.
Prabhupāda: Yes, complicated. When they are combined together.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even if it is complicated, this matter itself touched by life is more complicated.
Prabhupāda: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is.
Prabhupāda: Just like electricity. Electricity, when it is connected with the machine, it works. The machine is complicated.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it could be said that the machine is actually independent of the electricity.
Prabhupāda: No, how it is independent? Without electricity it has no value.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has no value, but it's still existing.
Prabhupāda: Existing, that is valuable?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But machine is touched by a person. So that makes a...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is an example, that here is electricity, power, and here is machine. The machine is complicated. The electricity is not complicated.
Hari-śauri: But if there's no electricity, then there's no need for a complicated machine.
Prabhupāda: You can see it is complicated. Even a typewriter machine, it is complicated.
Hari-śauri: Then it's only complicated because it needs to be so so that it can take the energy for running it.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, without electric, without energy, it cannot work, but the thing itself is complicated.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can I ask one question? If life is based on the desires of the living entities, and as you were mentioning that the material energy forms so many complex combinations, the material body is so complex, does that mean that the living entity is very much entangled?
Prabhupāda: If you analyze your body, so many complications. But without life it is all dead matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that is why we are concluding that matter, when it is associated with life, it is very complex.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Without matter, it is complex.
Rūpānuga: Without life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without life it's more complex, matter?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the same, the matter is the same.
Sadāpūta: Same body.
Rūpānuga: Well in a sense, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: There is no sense, try to understand. The body is complicated. But in spite of all this, it is useless unless there is life.
Rūpānuga: All right, so then in an embryo stage...
Prabhupāda: Any stage, it is, the whole thing is complicated.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But you are saying that the soul is actually by nature very simple.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At least compared to the material world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The soul is not complicated.
Sadāpūta: I believe what Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu is saying is that matter, each element studied by itself, has a simple structure, but when the body is formed with the soul, then it becomes apparently more complex; the chemical reactions become more complex.
Rūpānuga: As a matter of growth even. Because life is present, then this small pea grows.
Prabhupāda: That means that soul is not complicated.
Rūpānuga: No, not the soul. But that the presence of the soul causes growth.
Prabhupāda: Just like the dictaphone. The dictaphone is complicated, but my finger is not complicated. Finger is simple. I simply push, and it works.