Prabhupāda: Yes. But we had our saṅkīrtana festival for ten days, and people participated very wonderfully. We... Our gathering was not less than thirty thousand people daily, and they are so much interested in hearing about our... Lecture things, we are lecturing from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā. We are... Our preaching method is on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So people are responding from every part of the world, especially the American boys. They are especially interested. And England also, and Germany, and France. From here I shall go to Paris. There we have got center. What is the name of that place? Paris? Recently they have taken.
Śyāmasundara: Eh?
Prabhupāda: Recently they have changed the...?
Śyāmasundara: Oh. In some suburb, Fontenay Rose, Fontenay aux Rose.
Prof. Kotovsky: Ah, near Paris?
Prabhupāda: Yes
Prof. Kotovsky: In Fontaine Bleau?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They have taken a whole house, nice house. So our process is very simple. We ask our students to refrain from four prohibitive principles: no illi...
Prof. Kotovsky: From? I'm sorry. From? Four?
Prabhupāda: Prohibitive. No illicit sex life, no meat-eating, meat or fish or eggs, no, and no gambling, and no intoxication, including cigarette, tea, coffee. These also we take as intoxicants. So these four principle one has to obey, and let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. And by this process only, you'll find, how these boys and girls are improving quickly. Process is very simple. Besides that, we have got books, volumes of books, just like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā. I have given them. Throughout all these years I have written so many books. And they have got ample stock for reading, the whole life. We have got four hundred pages', big, big books, about one dozen books: Kṛṣṇa in two parts, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in six parts, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, one part, Nectar of Devotion, one part. In this way I am... And these are... We are publishing every month one chapter, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, with this detailed information, giving a heading like this, "The First Step in God Realization." Here is also. The heading is: "Puruṣa-śukta Continued." Puruṣa-śukta is a Vedic stotram. So we are trying to push this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like in your country there is Lenin consciousness, similarly, it is also a different type of consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is also historical personality as much as Lenin is also historical personality. So His philosophy... Just like you are trying to understand his philosophy, we are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. In this way this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on.
Prof. Kotovsky: And have you many participants...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...in these fifty-five branches?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, more than three thousand, three thousand initiated. And outside admirers, there are many, many. And this means these three thousand who have accepted the principles, just like these boys. So there are fifty-five branches. In each branch we are maintaining twenty-five to hundred students. So just imagine.
Prof. Kotovsky: But does that mean the students, they abstain for normal West European universities their own, all their... How to explain it? Their... For instance, can a normal student from, for instance, from one of the best universities, who is attending lectures in normal way, etc., also be initiated and admitted to your community?
Prabhupāda: No, both ways. Both ways. If you want to be initiated, you are welcome. If not, you come. Try to understand our philosophy. Read our books. There are so many books, magazines. And question, answer. Try to understand the philosophy. It is not that all of a sudden a student comes and becomes our disciple, no. They first of all come, associate, try to understand. Then... We do not canvass. When he voluntarily says that "I want to be your..."
Prof. Kotovsky: No, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no canvassing.
Prof. Kotovsky: No, yes. That's what I thought. But what I am most interested in... For instance, not a student but a young worker or a young son of a farmer, he would abstain from his old life and he would be initiated and join your community into a given center. How he would entertain himself?
Prabhupāda: The thing is... I have alre...
Prof. Kotovsky: In the sorts of day to day life...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: Material life...
Prabhupāda: Now, material life, it is...
Prof. Kotovsky: Would he be paid to stay in that center?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering. As I told you that this propaganda is meant for creating some brāhmaṇas all over the world because the brāhmaṇa element is lacking, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a brāhmaṇa. So he has to adopt the occupation of a brāhmaṇa, and he has to give up the occupation of a kṣatriya or a śūdra. But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed. Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For gṛhasthas, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live... So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sannyāsī. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmacārī, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmacārī. Similarly, there is sannyāsī. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmacārī or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master. The exact word is, in Bengali, kiba vipra kiba śūdra nyāsi kene nāya... Do you understand little Bengali?
Prof. Kotovsky: No, but...
Prabhupāda: As a vibration...
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettha sei guru hāya. Anyone who understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can become...
Prof. Kotovsky: Guru.
Prabhupāda: ...the spiritual master.
Prof. Kotovsky: I understand. But in generally, by creating brāhmaṇas from different social classes of society, really you deny the old prescription of Hindu script...
Prabhupāda: No, I establish old, old scrip... I establish.
Prof. Kotovsky: Because according to old script, the Purāṇas, etc., every member of one of the four classes, these varṇas...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...is to be born inside it...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...but not appointed.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. No, no, no.
Prof. Kotovsky: This is the major...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that... I am sorry...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas.
Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I agree with you that this was addition of late brāhmaṇas who tried to...
Prabhupāda: No, that, that has killed the Indian culture. You see? Otherwise there was no necessity of division of this Pakistan. Not only that, from history, perhaps you know, this whole planet was Bhāratavarṣa, and it was controlled by one flag up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Gradually they separated, separated. This is the history. And late, lately they have separated Pakistan. So Bhāratavarṣa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise this whole... According to our scripture, Vedic scripture, this, this whole planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly it was named Ilāvṛtavarṣa, but since the Emperor Bhārata ruled over this planet, it is called Bhāratavarṣa from Mahārāja Bhārata. So this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Vedic culture, were existing... Now any religion you take, Christian religion, Mohammedan religion or Buddhist religion, they are, utmost, two thousand, three thousand old, years old. But this Vedic scripture, you cannot trace out where is the beginning, where is the beginning. It is therefore called sanātana, eternal. And this culture is for the whole human society. It is not a departmental religious faith. Religious faith you can change, but real dharma you cannot change. Just like... You try to understand. Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, He says:
- yadā yadā hi dharmasya
- glanīr bhavati bhārata
- abhyutthānam adharmasya
- tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham
- (BG 4.7)
- paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ
- vināśāya ca duṣkṛtaṁ
- (BG 4.8)
Duṣkṛtānam, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Now, Kṛṣṇa came to establish the religious principles, and in the last stage of speaking He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya māmekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And that is real dharma, mām ek..., to surrender to the Supreme. That is real dharma. We are surrendering. Anyone, just like you or me, anyone, we are surrendering to somebody. That's a fact. Our, our life is by surrender. Is it not? Do you disagree with this point?
Prof. Kotovsky: To some extent you surrender.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to, to the full extent. Just like you...
Prof. Kotovsky: You are required to surrender to the society, for instance, to the whole people.
Prabhupāda: Yes, just... Whole people or the state or the king or the government, whatever you say—this surrender must be there. It may be different.
Prof. Kotovsky: I'm sorry. Only there's a difficulty. We can't agree that you have surrender to government or surrender to a king. There's a principle difference of surrender to a king, to a person, or surrender to a society.
Prabhupāda: No, that is... That is a change of color only. But the surrender is there. The principle of surrender is there. Either you surrender to monarchy, either you surrender to democracy or aristocracy or, what is called, dictatorship, you have to surrender. That's a fact. That's a fact. Without surrendering, our life is... There is no life. That is not possible. So we are educating persons to surrender to the Supreme wherefrom you get all protection. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mam ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), aham tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. So surrender is there. Nobody can say, "Now I am not surrendering to anyone." There is not a single person. Difference is where he is surrendering, where he is surrendering. The ultimate surrendering objective is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After surrendering to so many things, birth after birth, when he's actually wise he surrenders unto Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: (BG 7.19) "Such kind of mahātmā is very rare."
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. But at the same time, it seems to me that surrender, surrender is to be accompanied with revolt. The history of mankind has proved but by only revolt against some kind of surrender...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...mankind has been developed from medieval age... Like French Revolution, it was revolt against surrender. But this revolt also was surrender itself to the rank and file of the people, their (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: But so it is not enough to put a full stop on surrender.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prof. Kotovsky: Surrender is to be accompanied with revolt against surrender of other...
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the surrender will be full stop when the surrender is to Kṛṣṇa.
Prof. Kotovsky: Ah ha ha, yes.
Prabhupāda: That is full stop, no more surrendering.
Guest: Final surrendering.
Prabhupāda: Other surrender you have to change by revolution, but when you come to Kṛṣṇa, then it is sufficient. You are satisfied. Just like... I'll give you one example, that a child is crying, and people changing laps, "Oh, you are crying." It is not stopping. But as soon as the small baby comes to the lap of his mother, he stops: "Yes, full satisfied."