Prabhupāda: Our business is to point out who is not a saint.
Dr. Patel: But don't point us out. We think, we want the tree to be a saint. Okay?
Prabhupāda: That is our business. Preacher must be. Jaise police ka kaam hai ye chor hai . . . Like the Police job is to recognize a thief . . . (indistinct) (break) . . . can I speak something? Because their position is to take Ramakrishna as a saintly person. Saintly person there may be. Just like Rāvaṇa, he also underwent severe penances, but just to fulfill his personal desire. Or Rāvaṇa was so devotee of Lord Śiva that he was cutting his head and offering to the deity. Is it? You know, everyone?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So why he is called rākṣasa, not a saintly person? What is the reason?
Mahāṁsa: Because he was trying to en . . .
Prabhupāda: I will talk. Why he is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? And not only that . . . I do not know whether here. In Delhi I have seen Rāma-līlā, the effigy of Rāvaṇa is beaten with shoes sometimes.
Indian man: They do like that.
Prabhupāda: But actually he was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. Everyone knows. And he was so big devotee that Lord Śiva gave him all benedictions, "Whatever you wanted." So why this Rāvaṇa is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? Why he is not described as a saintly person? He was a brahmin by birth. He was born of a brāhmaṇa father, and he was great student of Vedas. Materially he was very opulent so that he could control even the demigods. He was so powerful. Still, with all this qualification, why he is described as rākṣasa? You answer this point.
Indian man (2): Because he had some fight with others also. So kāma, krodha, moha, lobha, he had that also along with . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: He is not a devotee of the Lord. So anyone . . . that is our criterion. Anyone who is not a devotee, whatever he may be . . . he may be very, very big or so-called saintly, but according to the description of the śāstras, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). We shall calculate in that way. As soon as we . . .
Indian man (3): He was devotee of Lord Śiva. Otherwise why Lord Śiva gives him whatever he wants?
Prabhupāda: Lord Śiva is Lord Śiva. He is very powerful demigod. He can give. He has got the power. But in spite of being favored by Lord Śiva, in spite of his becoming the great devotee of Lord Śiva, why he is described as rākṣasa? That is the point. So therefore if I say Rāvaṇa a rākṣasa, according to the śāstra, another devotee may be angry. So what can I do? It is stated in the śāstra, rākṣasa. Similarly, in the śāstra it is stated that na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: "If one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa he is duṣkṛtina, the most sinful; mūḍhā, rascal; naradhāma, lowest of the mankind; māyayā apahṛta-jñāna." These things are there. But if we quote the śāstra that, "This man has not surrendered to the Supreme Lord, therefore he is a rascal," then what is wrong with us? It may be very strong word, but it is stated in the śāstra. Just like about Rāvaṇa, it is stated that he is a rākṣasa. So it may be very insulting and strong word, but this is the statement of the śāstra. And if one quotes from the śāstra, what is wrong on his part?
Suppose in the court a big man has done something criminal, and the judgment is that he should be punished. So can you accuse the court, "Oh, such a big man?" Just like . . . for the time . . . let us understand. Mahatma Gandhi was put to jail in so many times. So nobody could say, because according to law there was civil disobedience. So if the law puts you in the jail, so can you protest against that? Then you will be also put into jail, contempt of court. Although everyone respects Mahatma Gandhi, but why he was put into jail? According to law. It may be it is man-made law, it is wrong, but the principle is that whatever is judgment of the śāstra, we have to take. It doesn't matter who is that man and how great he is. That is . . . yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim sa . . . (BG 16.23). The śāstra is given stress always. So you cannot go beyond the verdict of the śāstra.