Prabhupāda: By knowledge. By knowledge. Just like you are talking. How you are talking? Because the spirit soul is there within you. As soon as it is gone, you cannot talk. Your this body and everything will remain, but you cannot talk, you cannot understand—everything is finished. So this is matter. Body is matter, and the force which is helping you to talk, that is spirit. Now you have to understand it thoroughly.
Ali: Yes, I'm aware of that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ali: But I'm also aware that I'm very ignorant.
Prabhupāda: No, if you are aware of that thoroughly, then there is no question of ignorance.
Ali: But I feel that the presence of the spirit is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone knows the distinction.
Ali: But, uh, the relativity . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that requires the training and guidance of spiritual master. Therefore called spiritual master. You have to . . . just like if you want to be an engineer, you must be trained under some engineer. Similarly, if you want to be trained up spiritually, then you must accept a spiritual master. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): must, otherwise not possible. Training. So spiritual master trains with these books and explanation, practical demonstration. In this way the student makes progress spiritually.
Ali: I am a Muslim and I practice dervishism.
Prabhupāda: That, that . . . this is also a misunderstanding. You are thinking that you are a Muslim. Why?
Ali: It's just by normal definition.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are born of a Muslim father or a Muslim country.
Ali: No, no. In fact I didn't believe in religion at all.
Prabhupāda: Then you believe, that is also belief. You are believing something is this body, and when this body is left over, then you will believe something else.
Ali: For sure, my belief was disbelief.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, belief changes. Belief changes with the change of the body. Just like a man is thinking that, "I am Iranian," "I am Indian," so long this body is Iranian or Indian or American. But the body will change. Then he'll think otherwise. So this belief is also temporary. It will be finished with the body. The body is temporary, and the belief, along with the body, that is also temporary. But I am eternal. That is to be understood. That is spiritual knowledge.
Ali: Sure, that is what I am practicing right now.
Prabhupāda: Yes, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The spirit soul, which is eternal, which is never lost, even by the annihilation of the body, we have to understand about that thing, that is spiritual knowledge. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā lesson. First to understand what you are: you are not this body. This is spiritual knowledge. When one understands thoroughly that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," then he is no more Hindu, Muhammadan or Christian or nothing. He's spirit soul, brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is called brahma-bhutaḥ. At that time, there is no such conception that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that." Because he's not body. He's not body. That is pure understanding. And then spiritual knowledge begins. So long I shall think myself as Hindu, Muslim, Christian, there is no spiritual knowledge. That is material knowledge.