Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, the actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.
When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead and His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by doing so have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord. Jaya, bliss. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So? Do you agree or not? (laughter) We welcome scientific knowledge. We don't say that scientific knowledge should be stopped, but it should be utilized to glorify the Lord. Then it is perfect. Otherwise useless. Means you don't get perfection. Perfection is when you scientifically describe the existence of God and His different energies, how they are working. And that is scientist, real scientist. Otherwise, theories, you can give your theory, I'll give you a theory... Temporary. That's all. So everything is there in Bhāgavatam, all knowledge, full knowledge. Vidvān bhāgavata-vādī. So vidvān means, vidvān means one who has learned Bhāgavata, Bhāgavatam nicely. He's vidvān, factually. So you do not read all these things?
Robert Gouiran: I am sorry.
Prabhupāda: Always read. So many information are there.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Does this mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if the scientists of the world become little bit directed and they use their science to glorify Kṛṣṇa, then they're actually practicing yoga?
Prabhupāda: That is success. Their scientific knowledge will be successful when by scientific knowledge they prove that God is the origin of the universe. That is success. That is... Another verse you can read. Idaṁ hi puṁsas... No. That...
- ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
- varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
- svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
- saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
- (SB 1.2.13)
Find out the verse.
Guru-gaurāṅga: If their science is material, Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can they...
Prabhupāda: There is nothing material before Kṛṣṇa. Because everything's coming from Kṛṣṇa. One who does not know Kṛṣṇa, it is material. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. Hm.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "O best amongst the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord Hari."
Prabhupāda: That's it. You may be scientist, you may be something else, but if you try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by your occupation, that is perfection. That is perfection. Read the purport.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varṇāśrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose.
Herein the statement of Bhāgavatam is that the highest aim of life or the highest perfection of the institution of the varṇāśrama-dharma is to cooperate jointly for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.13).
Robert Gouiran: I have the impression that this translation is not very good because when you define the four states of life and you translate the two last ones by..., mainly the last one, by devotion for sannyāsin. Sannyāsin is not devotion. Sannyāsin is...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: I'll read that again. "then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life..."
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "...the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life."
Robert Gouiran: Oh, yes. Another way of the fourth translation, the fourth one.
Yogeśvara: He says that the word sannyāsin should be translated as renunciation instead of devotion. The stage of renunciation, instead of...
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?
Robert Gouiran: Well, normal meaning.
Prabhupāda: No meaning?
Guru-gaurāṅga: The normal meaning.
Robert Gouiran: Normal meaning of the word...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Robert Gouiran: Usual meaning of the word.
Prabhupāda: Yes, What is the usual meaning of the word? First of all you say that...
Robert Gouiran: Renunciation is to get freedom.
Prabhupāda: Renounce means, renounce means, renounce means to give up. This is the ordinary meaning.
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Is it not?
Robert Gouiran: In order to get freedom.
Prabhupāda: So...
Robert Gouiran: Absolute, absolute freedom.
Prabhupāda: So by renouncing you get freedom?
Robert Gouiran: Absolute freedom.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Absolute freedom, that's all right. Take your meaning. But do you think by renouncing... Suppose you are sitting here. You renounce this place. You get freedom?
Robert Gouiran: Uh...
Prabhupāda: Does it mean that you get freedom?
Robert Gouiran: No.
Prabhupāda: Or you are acting as a scientist. You give up that business. Does it mean your freedom?
Robert Gouiran: Well, renunciation doesn't mean giving up.
Prabhupāda: No, renunciation means giving up.
Robert Gouiran: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Just find out. So what is the meaning of giving up? Why you should give up? You are occupying some business... Suppose you are working as a scientist. So why should you give it up?
Robert Gouiran: Why?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is a...
Robert Gouiran: Because it's...
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?
Yogeśvara: (Reading from dictionary) It says, "The giving up of things, self-denial."
Prabhupāda: That's right. So renunciation means giving up. So suppose you are working as a scientist. You give up. Then what do you gain by that giving up?
Robert Gouiran: Because...
Prabhupāda: First of all, why should you give up?
Robert Gouiran: To get... To get, to get free...
Prabhupāda: "To get." The word is "to get."
Robert Gouiran: Well, I'm not English-speaking.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is the meaning. You renounce to get something else. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this renunciation.
Robert Gouiran: Just in order to get rid of the barriers which blocks the access of the spiritual plane.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotion. To work on the spiritual plane means devotion, devotional service. That is spiritual. Otherwise what is the meaning of renunciation? Suppose you are working as scientist. You renounce. What do you gain? Unless you gain something better, then there is meaning of renouncing.
Robert Gouiran: I was taught... Well, if you are speaking about...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, it has no meaning.
Robert Gouiran: ...etymology.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Robert Gouiran: Devoted means...
Yogeśvara: We were speaking about the verse in Bhāgavatam that says the perfection of all work is to attain that knowledge of the Supreme.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: And to please Him.
Yogeśvara: So that is also the perfection for the sannyāsī; the perfection of his work also is devotion to the Supreme.
Prabhupāda: If you renounce something for zero, then what is the value of renunciation: There must be something better. Then you renounce. Otherwise what is the value of renunciation? To become zero?