Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is spiritual, that is spiritual. To give glory to God, that is spiritual. And otherwise, what do you think of this materiality of this chanting? Chanting is not material. Chanting is spiritual.
Jesuit: Well, it depends. I mean, some thing, of course . . .
Prabhupāda: No. Spiritual thing does not depend on anything material.
Jesuit: The sum product that the full prayer is certainly a spiritual experience created by a material use of lips and things like that, it makes a noise.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not material creation. Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is not material creation. It is from the spiritual world.
Jesuit: Oh, I see that, but I mean if you've spoken words . . . all I'm trying to say is that it's body and soul together praying.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Body and soul different.
Jesuit: Oh, of course. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Body and soul different.
Jesuit: But that's the point I was trying to make, that you have a gradation in your prayer of . . . in the Jesus prayer, in which you speak and you can hear the noise, chanting. You might say something like this: (sings softly to tune of "Amazing Grace") "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus." Now, that's a chanting, a singing, and it sums up everything I believe in, say, in the word Jesus. But then there can be the other, where there's no sound is heard, but I'm still thinking it in my mind.
Prabhupāda: Similarly you can think of Hare Kṛṣṇa. (sings) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . same thing. Where is the difference? There is no difference.
Jesuit: The third form is where I do not think it; it's just . . . I'm sort of rapt, absorbed in the divine . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. Wrapt attention, ecstasy, comes in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Otherwise these young boys are chanting and dancing . . . unless there is ecstasy . . . they are not monkeys. They are human beings. They are dancing, with education, with culture. Unless there is spiritual ecstasy, how they can chant and dance for hours together? It is not monkey dancing. It is spiritual. It is spiritual.
Jesuit: Oh, I can see that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is God's omnipotency. When you offer sincere prayer, the words become spiritual. That is wanted. If you sincerely offer your prayers, God understands. Even though sound appears to be material, it is no more material; it is spiritual. Just like . . . I will give you one example. Just you put one iron rod in the fire. So the iron rod becomes warm, warmer, warmer, and then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot, it is no more iron; it is fire. You touch that red hot anywhere, it will burn.
Jesuit: Hmm. Transformed. It changes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So actually there is nothing material. When God consciousness is there, it is spiritual. This . . . in association with God, everything becomes spiritual. Just like there is a church and there is an ordinary house. People say: "This is church, God's place, and this is house." What is the difference? That is also made of bricks, that is also made of bricks. Why people go to the church? Why not to the house? So the conclusion is, when the atmosphere is surcharged with God consciousness, it is spiritual. Immediately. Otherwise, as soon as you forget God, then it is material. Material and spiritual means where there is no forgetfulness of God, that is spiritual. And where there is forgetfulness of God, that is material.
Jesuit: Hmm. Sort of a figurative use of the word.
Prabhupāda: Not figurative, it is actual. Actually, God is all-pervading. Everything is God's energy. Therefore God is whole spirit. His energy cannot be material.