Yes. When he understands his pleasing, as situation with God, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate... (BG 2.59). When he understands the transcendental pleasing situation of his life, he automatically gives up this material bodily attachment. That is his freedom. And when he actually, in his spiritual identity, engaged in the service of the Lord, that is his normal position. (break)
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Origen. Origen believed that all the elements that are found in the material body are also found in the spiritual body, which he called the interior man. He says, "God created man not taking the dust of the earth like the second time, but He created him after the image of God," that is initially, "this being after the likeness of God was immaterial, superior to any corporeal hypothesis. There are thus two men in each one of us, as every exterior man has for homonym the interior man. So it is for all His members, and one can say that every member of the exterior man can be found under this name in the interior man." So that for every corresponding sense that we have in the exterior body, there's a corresponding sense in the interior or the spiritual body which exists within.
Prabhupāda: The spirit soul is within this material body, but the spirit soul has no material body originally. There is a spiritual body of the spirit soul eternally existing, and the material body is simply coating of the spiritual body. This material body is considered as coating, shirt-coat. It is cut according to the bodily shape. Just ordinarily we can see the tailor makes the shirt and coat according to the shape of the body. Similarly, these material elements, earth, water, fire, etc., mixed together, becomes like a clay, and it is coated over the spiritual body. The spiritual body has no connection with the material body. So because the spiritual body has got shape, the material body also takes a shape. That is understanding. But material body has nothing to do with the spiritual body. It is simply external coating, or it is a kind of contamination for suffering of the spirit soul. As soon as he is coated with this material contamination, he identifies himself with the coating and he forgets his real, spiritual body. That is called māyā, ignorance, and this ignorance continues so long he is not fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. When one becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he understands that this material body is the external coating; he is different from this material body. That condition, that uncontaminated understanding, is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. The spirit soul is Brahman. He was under the illusion of bodily concept of life—that is called jīva-bhūtaḥ—and when he understands that he is not this body, he is the spirit soul within the body, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. So when one comes to this understanding of his spiritual identity, he becomes joyful, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), he has no more any hankering or lamentation. In that position he sees all other living entities as spirit soul. He does not see the outward covering. Even in a dog he sees the spirit soul covered by the body of a dog, and similarly a learned brāhmaṇa, he also sees the spirit soul covered by the material body designated as learned brāhmaṇa. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā this conception is summarized,
- vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
- brahmaṇe gavi hastini
- śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
- paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
- (BG 5.18)
So up to the animal bodily concept of life, one is unable to understand his spiritual identity. But in the civilized form of life, when the society is divided into eight divisions, varṇa and āśrama-four varṇas and four āśramas-brahman, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, four varṇas, brahmacārī, and gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsī... So a brāhmaṇa from the social status, when he becomes elevated to the position of a sannyāsī, that is the highest perfectional stage in this material world, and at that stage only he can realize his original constitutional position and he acts accordingly, and thus he becomes delivered, which is called mukti. Mukti means to understand his own constitutional position and act accordingly, and conditional life means to identify with the body and act accordingly. So in the mukti state the activities are different from the conditional state. Therefore the devotional service is the activity of the liberated stage. So anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he maintains his spiritual identity, and therefore he is called liberated even though in this conditional material body.
Hayagrīva: Origen believed that the interior man, or the spiritual body, also has spiritual senses which enable the soul to taste, see, touch and contemplate the things of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotional life.
Hayagrīva: During his lifetime Origen was a great teacher and was very much in demand. For him, preaching simply meant explaining the words of God and no more. He believed that first of all a preacher must be a man of prayer and must be in contact with God, and that he should pray for a better understanding of the scriptures.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real preacher. That is explained in the Vedic literature, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. First of all he becomes perfect by hearing. This is called śravaṇam. And when he is perfectly situated in spiritual life by hearing perfectly from the perfectly authorized person, then his next stage begins, kīrtanam. That is preaching. That śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, everyone is hearing in this material world. Everyone is hearing. Even this material educationist, he also hears from the material person, professor. That hearing is there. Then he acts when he is grown-up, passed his examination, sometimes acts as professor. The same process: if one hears from the perfect spiritualized person, he becomes perfect, then he becomes actual preacher. Preaching, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, about Viṣṇu, not for any other person within this material world. The Supreme Person, transcendental Personality of Godhead, to hear about Him and to preach about Him, that is the duty of a liberated soul.
Hayagrīva: As far as seeming contradictions and seeming absurdities in scripture are concerned, Origen considered these as stumbling blocks allowed by God to exist in order for man to go beyond the literal meaning. He says, "In some cases no useful meaning attaches to the obvious interpretation, but everything in scripture has a spiritual meaning, but not all of it has a literal meaning."
Prabhupāda: Literal... Generally, every word in the scripture there is literal meaning, but one who cannot understand properly because one does not hear from the proper person, he makes some interpretation. But there is no need of interpretation in the words of God. It may be that the words of God sometimes cannot be understood by ordinary person; therefore he requires to understand through the via-media of transparent guru. Guru is fully cognizant of the words spoken by God. One has to accept, therefore, a guru to go through the scripture properly. Generally there is no ambiguity in the words of God, but due to our lack of perfect knowledge we sometimes cannot understand and try to interpret. But this is, this interpretation is not at all feasible, because imperfect person interpreting means whatever he interprets, that is imperfect. So the proper import of the words of scripture or words of God should be understood from a person who has realized God.