Guest (5): It's the alpha and the omega then. Swami, do you see a difference or a conflict between being a devotee of Jesus and a devotee of Kṛṣṇa? May one be both?
Prabhupāda: A devotee means, real devotee means, he has no purpose for material gain. That is real devotee. Now we have to see what kind of devotee he is. There are two kinds of devotees: with purpose and without purpose. The "without purpose" devotee is pure devotee, and "with purpose" devotee, they are material devotee. That is distinguished in Bhagavad-gītā,
- ārto arthārthī jijñāsur
- jñānī ca bharatarṣabha
- catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ
- (janāḥ) sukṛtinaḥ arjuna
- (BG 7.16)
There are pious men and sinful men. Sinful men cannot become devotee. Pious men can become devotee.
- yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
- janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
- te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
- bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
- (BG 7.28)
These are the definitions. One who is completely free from all sinful activities, they can become pure devotee. So even after becoming free from sinful activities, if one has got some motive, then he is also not pure devotee. Pure devotee means without any material motive: "God is great. I am His subordinate. I must love God. I must render service to God." This is pure devotee. And if I go to God, "Please give me my bread," that is not pure devotee, because he has got some purpose. As soon as his purpose is fulfilled, he may turn nondevotee. Just like one of my German Godbrothers said that in Germany during the last war, Second World War, many women used to go to the church to pray to God to get back their husband, son, or brother. But nobody came back. And they became atheist: "There is no God. We prayed so much, and my father did not come, my brother did not come, my son did not come." So motivated devotion is sometimes frustrated, and they become atheist. Therefore the devotee who has no motive is pure devotee. "In any condition, it is my duty to love God and to serve Him, not for my benefit but God's satisfaction." That is pure devotee.
- anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ
- jñānakarmādy-anāvṛtam
- ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-
- śilānaṁ bhaktir uttama
- (Brs. 1.1.11)
This is the definition of pure devotee. "If God satisfies me in my sense gratification, then I love God. Otherwise I have no connection with Him." That is not devotion; that is business. So business-type devotion is not devotion. It is devotion—it may be accepted as a pious activity, not devotion. Devotion is transcendental to pious and impious activity. Just like Arjuna was thinking to fight with his cousin-brothers and kill them is impious. But when he understood, "Kṛṣṇa wants this fight," he transcended the impious activity, and by the order of Kṛṣṇa he killed his relative. Therefore this devotion is above the position of pious and impious activity. Therefore it is called transcendental.
Guest (4): I am not clear on what you're saying that for someone...
Prabhupāda: It is clear. If you have got some motive and with motive you go to God, that is not pure devotion.
Guest (4): It is wrong to petition God?
Prabhupāda: No, it is not wrong, but it is not pure devotion.
Guest (4): I see.
Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if you go to God, that is very good. With motive or without motive, you have come to God, that is piety. That is better than to become impious. Impious men, they do not go to God. Just like nowadays nobody goes to church. Church are selling. Simply... Temples also. So now there are in India so many township development. They are constructing very fashionable houses, but no temples. Nobody is constructing temple. At the present moment everybody has become disinterested with anything religion and God. All over the world. That is degradation. Especially I am seeing in Bombay, that Juhu scheme, very nice houses are being manufactured. You have all seen. But nobody is constructing a temple. The modern economists, they say "nonproductive endeavor"—means there is no income. Simply you have to spend money for maintaining the temple. So they are not interested in nonproductive things. So this is degradation of the human society. Either as Christian or Hindu or Mohammedan, nobody is interested. A few may be interested. (pause)