Prabhupāda: ...poverty.
Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat all the time. Ninety percent of the peasantry absolutely, completely wiped out during the Britishers' time. They never looked after them.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Poverty is the cause of nonretirement?
Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat. They hardly get, I mean, two meals. Not square but even triangle. (laughs) They don't get any food in the mofices(?).
Prabhupāda: What is the question of mofices?(?) I am talking of...
Dr. Patel: India is made up of all villages and mofices(?). Cities are few.
Prabhupāda: So that is the cause of nonretirement.
Dr. Patel: I mean to my mind. It may be another cause also. I don't know. What do you think? Lack of proper education?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big men like Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi, they never retired.
Dr. Patel: Gandhi, as a matter of fact, retired long back. I mean the... As far as I know, he was not a member of the Congress.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It was everything.
Dr. Patel: That is... You are. You may not be member, but you are everything. They like that. I mean, if I am not wrong.
Prabhupāda: What do you mean by retire? Retire means...
Dr. Patel: Retire from the worldly affairs.
Prabhupāda: From the worldly affairs. That is retire. We are not śūnyavādi. The retirement means...
Dr. Patel: Our religions are dharma, artha, kāma and mokṣa. It is in a continuity. It is a sort of a string. First you have artha...
Prabhupāda: The real thing is they do not retire on account of their strong sense of gratification. That is the reason, not that poverty-stricken. Even though poverty-stricken, still they want to enjoy. This is the basic principle. There is nothing to be enjoyed; still, he wants to enjoy. That mentality.
Dr. Patel: Why with all that glorious past and glorious culture they have to... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the principle, varṇāśrama-dharma.
- varṇāśramācāravatāṁ
- puruṣena paraḥ puman
- viṣṇur aradhyate puṁsaṁ
- nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam
- (CC Madhya 8.58)
Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Nanyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam. Tat-toṣa means to satisfy Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. They don't want to do that. They want to satisfy their senses.
Dr. Patel: Our culture was so built as to do work for Kṛṣṇa throughout the life from brahmācārya, gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha...
Prabhupāda: But where is the question. Unless...
Dr. Patel: But how they have forgotten this is the greatest, I mean, mystery to me. Because the sādhus voluntarily, I mean, embrace poverty?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: All those, sir...
Prabhupāda: This service to Kṛṣṇa has disappeared on account of this māyāvāda philosophy.
Dr. Patel: You think so.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And māyāvāda philosophy was necessary to dislodge the Buddhist, degenerated Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūnyavādi. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. They are practically the same. Buddhists say that everything is zero ultimately. And the Māyāvādīs say...
Dr. Patel: Māyāvādīs, sir, have been proved that if everything is zero, who sees the zero? Who sees the zero?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Māyāvādī says zero, just like the sky. The sky is there, but it is zero. You cannot see the planet.
Dr. Patel: But who sees all these things? That is what...
Prabhupāda: And he cannot see; therefore he says it is zero. Just like now you do not see the stars, but it is on account of my deficient vision I do not see, and I say, "It is zero," less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Apahṛta-jñāna. Apahṛta-jñāna.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Apahṛta-jñāna Māyāvādīs, they have spoiled the whole thing.
Dr. Patel: Do you think, in your opinion, māyāvāda was a necessity to undo all the bad effect of the degenerated Buddhism? This followed some three, four or seven hundred years of after Gautama Buddha.
Prabhupāda: No, it... It might be necessity for the time being. Buddhism also was a necessity for the time being. They are not for all. Emergency. Just like it is going on, "emergency." It is not necessity, but sometimes we have to take emergency. Otherwise how Vaiṣṇavas are worshiping Lord Buddha? Eh? Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jatam: "You are always deriding the Vedic principles," śruti-jatam. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghāṭam. This is emergency, that "You have become so much compassionate upon the poor animals because they are unnecessarily being killed." Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa. He is glorifying, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, but showing that "You are deriding Vedic principles." So how is that, if one derides Vedic principle, at the same time, jaya jagadīśa hare?
Dr. Patel: Because the Vedic principles were not properly understood by those people at that time.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He directly said, "I don't care for the Vedas." Lord Buddha says. So who will worship a person who directly says, "I don't care for your Vedas"? Shall you go to worship a Buddhist or Mohammedan? No. This is emergency. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita paśu-ghāṭam. He cannot deride the Vedic principle, but it was necessary at the time. Otherwise these rascals will not stop.
Dr. Patel: Today, sir, the more animals are being killed than what they were killed in those days in the name of religion. Today it is in the name of the civilization
Prabhupāda: Because... No, no. Now there is no religion. "Secular." There is no religion.
Dr. Patel: Don't say no religion. Secularism is irreligious...
Prabhupāda: Secular means no religion.
Dr. Patel: Irreligious rather than. No religion is also something good. But something other than religion.
Prabhupāda: You may call anything, but there is no religion. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samanaḥ. They are animals, that's all. The modern civilized man is nothing but an animal-dressed animal, two-legged animal. The animals are four-legged, and these animals are two-legged, that's all. Or big animal. (break)...varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The leaders of this modern civilization, they are being praised by other animals. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ (SB 2.3.19). Śva means dog and...
Dr. Patel: Kharāḥ means asses.
Prabhupāda: Śva-viḍ... Viḍ-varāha means hogs, and uṣṭra means camel, and kharaḥ means gadha, ass. So these leaders are being praised by these animals: dogs, hogs, camels, and asses. And they are thinking they are very big men. What is the value of prayers offered by dogs, hogs, asses and camels? The general people are dogs, hogs, camels. I think you have read. I have explained how they are camel, how they are dog, how they are hog, and how they are ass. I have explained this.
Yaśomatīnandana: That's the Second Canto.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The modern education means to create dogs. The dog goes door to door and moves the tail, "Please give me if you have anything." So this educated person with application goes, and they say, "No vacancy. Get out." Therefore they are dogs. Educated means dogs. They are creating dogs. In Vedic culture no brāhmaṇa will accept any job. No kṣatriya will accept any job. No vaiśya will accept any... Only śūdras. Only śūdras.
Dr. Patel: Now they are keeping dogs in their kitchens.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Doggish mentality is there.
Dr. Patel: You see, the people are spending more than thirty, forty rupees on a dog every day. But they won't pay two rupees to a servant, domestic servant in their home.
Prabhupāda: They are keeping servants also. But educated dogs. After passing so many examinations, they are seeking after master. And without master they will starve. This is doggish mentality. A big technologist, unless he gets a good job, he is nothing but dog.
Dr. Patel: He has got no means to further his technology. He must have some means to further his own technology in the modern times, sir. It is very difficult to further your technology without proper means, instruments.
Prabhupāda: On the principle it is dog's business. Unless you get a master, you are useless. So that is dog's business. Just like these dogs here on the beach. Because they have no master, they are forlorn, only barking and going here, there. Sanatha jivitaḥ. So we are, every one of us, we are now dogs of the material nature, or just like street dogs. So therefore... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we should take shelter of the big master, Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be all right. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...eva caran nirantaram. This is Yamunacārya's prayer. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaram. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaraṁ praśānta-nihśeṣa-gato... Prasanta-nihsesa-gato-manantaram. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.