Prabhupāda: They have to be trained. Just like you have been trained up as geographer; similarly, a certain man can be trained up as first-class man by education.
Justin Murphy: But trained by others or trained by themselves?
Prabhupāda: No, there must be institution.
Justin Murphy: But surely training by oneself. But training by oneself, such as for example an Albert Einstein or a Bertrand Russell...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no, no, no. By teacher. You have become geographer not by yourself.
Justin Murphy: Oh, yes, but we also have many... I'm nowhere near what you're saying is a first-class. I'm talking about some of our latter-day philosophers, and Bertrand Russell is a person, for example, who, for gentleness, sobriety, and thought, whom I admire very much. And he has attained that himself. He hasn't been... He was certainly, as we all must be, surely, trained to begin with. But then it's a process of individual thought.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no, no. But that's all right. Just like we have got different institution—this is for educating engineers, this is for educating medical man, this is for educating geographer—as there are different departments.
Justin Murphy: Oh, sure, to begin with, and so there must be.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, there must be a department to train first-class men. That is required.
Justin Murphy: We don't have them in our universities.
Prabhupāda: So therefore it is chaotic, no first-class men, all third class, fourth class.
Justin Murphy: What are the specifications for your first-class man?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out. Satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā.
Paramahaṁsa: Satyam?
Prabhupāda: Śamo damas titikṣā, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Eighteenth Chapter.
Paramahaṁsa: Satyam or satya?
Prabhupāda: Satya. S-a-t-y-a. (devotee looking for verse) You find out jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. Jñānam, find out jñānam. J-n-a-n, jñānam.
Paramahaṁsa: Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam, 18.42.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa:
- śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ
- kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca
- jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ
- brahma-karma svabhāva-jam
- (BG 18.42)
Translation: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."
Prabhupāda: This is first-class man.
Justin Murphy: Who decides whether a man, then, is..., fits into those criteria and becomes a first-class man? Who decides? Who is to say whether a man is first class or not?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He should be first of all qualified like this. What is that?
Paramahaṁsa: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness.
Justin Murphy: But once a man has strived for those qualities, how does he know when he's attained them? And...
Prabhupāda: No, you... Śamaḥ, śamaḥ. The first word is śamaḥ?Śamaḥ means equilibrium of the mind. One should be trained up in such a way that he is not disturbed in his mind in any circumstance. That is called śamaḥ. And damaḥ, damaḥ means controlling the senses. Naturally I find one beautiful woman I want to talk with him (her), and he (she) is other's wife. But I should: "No, why should I talk with other's wife?" This is damaḥ, controlling the senses. So śamaḥ means keeping the mind always equipoised, and damaḥ, the controlling the mind. And suppose if... I have to eat something to live. So God has given me so many nice foodstuff: food grain, fruits, milk. Why should I kill an animal unnecessarily, for the taste of my tongue?
Justin Murphy: Selfishness.
Prabhupāda: But I want to live. There are... India, eighty percent people, they are vegetarian. They are living very nicely. They are eating sufficient food grain and fruits and milk and milk product. God has given us so many. So why should we maintain slaughterhouse, killing other animals? So a first-class man will not do that. First-class man will think that "I want to eat something to keep myself fit. If by natural products I can keep myself fit, why shall I kill another animal?" And every religion teaches that. Now take in your Christian religion. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouse. So this is the condition of the society. How you can become happy? You are violating the rules and regulation of religion and God. You cannot become... Nature will disturb in so many ways. That is nature's business.
Justin Murphy: But so many of us, of course, are used to it. We like it.
Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking about you particularly, but general way, general way. So this is first-class man. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā. Now, suppose I was not a first-class man; I was a fourth-class man. Now I want to become a first-class man. So I was eating meat. Just these boys, European, American boys, they were eating everything. Now they have given up. On my word or to associate with me, they have given up meat-eating, illicit sex, meat-eating. So in the beginning it may be disturbing because "I am habituated to all these things, and by my spiritual master order not to do this..." So it may be disturbing. But that is called titikṣā, tolerance: "No, I have to do it. If I want to make progress to become first-class man, this is order, so I must do it even..." The tolerance. Even it is disturbing... In the beginning. It is not disturbing. In the beginning, because I habituated to do something... Just like a thief. If you ask him to become honest, it will be disturbing for him because he is habituated to steal.
So that we have to tolerate. Therefore it is called titikṣā. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā ārjavam. Ārjavam means simple life, simplicity, that "If I can live in this way, why shall I acquire so many things for artificial life?" That is called ārjavam. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā ārjavam, then jñānam. Jñānam means knowledge that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul. My..." Actually that is the fact. This body is not important. The living force within the body is important. As soon as the living force goes out of the body, what is this value? You may be a great geographer or scientist or Professor Einstein or whatever. As soon as the living force is gone, you are useless, this body is useless. You have to throw it. That is jñānam, that "I am taking so much care of this material body, which will not exist, which I shall, become... 'Dust thou art; dust thou beist.' Again it will mix up with these dirty things. I am taking so much care of this body.