Hayagrīva: It's been said that Socrates's philosophy is primarily a philosophy of ethics, and that...
Prabhupāda: Atheist?
Hayagrīva: Ethics, ethics...
Prabhupāda: Ethics.
Hayagrīva: The way, the way to...
Prabhupāda: Ethics, yes.
Hayagrīva: The way of action in the world. And the jñāna, or knowledge, in itself is not sufficient, but it must be applied and must serve as a basis for action in the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, ethics is the basic principle of purification. Unless one does..., knows what is moral and what is immoral... Of course, in this material world everything is immoral, but still we have to distinguish good and bad. That is called regulative principle. Simply by following the regulative principle, if he does not reach the ultimate goal of spiritual life, so that is also not wanted. The real aim is to come to the spiritual platform and become free from the influence of these laws of material nature. So passion is the binding force in the material nature. Just like in the prison house the prisoners are kept sometimes chained by some iron shackles and other method, so material nature has given the chain, shackles, of sex life, passion, rajas tamaḥ. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Rajah-guṇah means the modes of passion. So modes of passion means kama, lusty desires, and krodha. When the lusty desires are not fulfilled, one becomes angry. But these things are the means of bondage in this material world. In another place it is said, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). When one is afflicted with the base material modes of nature, namely rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, then he becomes greedy and lusty. So ethics require to get out of the clutches of greediness and lusty desires. Then he comes to the platform of goodness, which will help him to go to the platform of spiritual life.
Hayagrīva: But is meditation in itself..., would that be sufficient to transcend these lower...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation, if he seeks after the Supersoul within himself...
Hayagrīva: Oh.
Prabhupāda: ...that meditation is perfect. And if he is manufacturing something or bluffing others and bluffing himself by..., in the name of meditation, transcendental, it is useless. It has no value.
Hayagrīva: Well, he feels that if one knows himself one will be a sādhu, because knowledge is identical with virtue.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: And through meditation—they call..., he called it arete (?)—a person attains knowledge. Through knowledge a person becomes virtuous. When one is virtuous, he acts in the right way. When one acts properly, he becomes happy. Therefore the enlightened man is a man who is meditative, knowledgeable, virtuous and, because of his proper action, he is happy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). This is the symptom of self-realized person. If one is self-realized, he is immediately happy, prasannātmā, jolly, because immediately he is on the right. Just like one is going on under some mistaken ideas, and when he comes to the real idea, he becomes very happy: "Oh, so long I was going on such a mistaken idea." So immediately the result will be happiness: "How foolish I was. I was doing like this, doing like that." So right..., as soon as one comes to the right position, he, the symptom is he is prasannātmā. What is that prasannātmā? Na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Prasannātmā, happiness, means he has no more anything to hanker. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varam: "I don't want any material benediction." Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "My Lord, don't tell You want me for any material benefit. I have seen so much afflict. My father was so big materialistic that even the demigods, they were afraid of him. You have finished it within a second. So I am not after these things." So this is real knowledge, that na śocati na kāṅkṣati, he has no more hankering. The karmīs, jñānīs, yogis, they have got hankering. The karmīs, they are hankering after how to get material wealth, how to get material position, how to get nice woman, how to get nice position. That is karmī. Their business—simply hankering, hankering. bankruptcy (?). And if they have lost, they cry, "Oh, I have lost it, I have lost it, I have lost." Two business. So when one becomes self-realized, these two things are conspicuous by absence: no more hankering, no more lamenting. The karmīs are hankering; the jñānīs, they are also expecting to become one with God, to merge into the existence of God. That is also hankering. The yogis, they are hankering after some magic power so they can befool others that he has become God, "I can manufacture gold, I can fly in the sky," and foolish people after them. Intelligent person will see, "What is this perfection? Even if he can fly in the sky, there are so many birds are flying. What is the difference between this flying and that flying?" So he doesn't care. So these are not perfection. But they, people, foolish people, they think it is perfection. If one can say that "I will walk over the sea," actually say it shall happen, thousands and thousands fools will come. Just as, the same thing, that there is a man advertises that he will show how he can bark like dog, people will pay ten rupees ticket and go to see how a man is barking like a dog. But he doesn't hear so many dogs are barking, creating disturbance. So this is going on. Some extraordinary power, showing, making one karmī, jñānī, yogi, but a devotee, he is so satisfied in the service of the Lord, he doesn't want anything, all this nonsense. That is perfection.