Prabhupāda: ...need of God or not? Whether there is need of God?
Prajāpati: The scientists say no, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom.
Prajāpati: They say there's neither need, nor usefulness.
Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. What is your opinion, scientist? There is need of God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They may say that there is no necessity, but the fact is that there must be.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise they, we cannot conceive of how things are going on.
Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Just like in the modern days, government, they have abolished monarchism, but still, why they elect a president? Why?
Prajāpati: Must be leadership.
Prabhupāda: Must be. That is the point. If you have abolished monarchy, then why you are electing another rascal to become a monarch? What is the answer? Why do you need it?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they need law and order.
Prabhupāda: Yes, there must be. In our organization... Just like in each temple we elect a president. Then we get GBC. Then above all, I am. So that is needed. It is not conventional. It is needed. Therefore above everything, there must be God. So if these people, they say, "There is no need of God, there is no use for Him," that means they are all rascals.
Karandhara: They themselves want to be that God.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. You become God. But our point is there is need of God.
Karandhara: Well, on that basis, on that logic they would say, "Yes, there is need, but we can fill that need."
Prabhupāda: You fill, that's all right, but if you cannot... That is the question. (laughter) Our definition of God is that He maintains everyone. Can you maintain everyone?
Karandhara: They are thinking they are maintaining.
Prabhupāda: They again thinking. What is your present position? You are maintained. You cannot maintain. You are maintained by your boss. He gives you some salary and you fill up your bellies. You rascal, you want to be maintainer. You cannot maintain even a family of five heads. Therefore we say, all full of rascals. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... That is our śāstric conclusion. Anyone who is atheist, nondevotee, he is a rascal number one. Bās. It doesn't matter what post he holds. Our conclusion is that he is a rascal number one. That's all. He cannot have any good qualification. There is need of God. Who will maintain? Just like children. They require care of the parents. The people require the care of a head man, executive. This is essential. You cannot do without God. Who is maintaining that the moon is exactly in time rising, exactly in time setting?
Devotee: Only God.
Prabhupāda: Under whose order it is being done?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say, "By nature."
Prabhupāda: What you mean, "By nature"? That is another rascaldom. Why this wood is not moving by nature unless somebody comes and moves?
Prajāpati: They will say, "That is just the way things are."
Prabhupāda: But it stops. Your body is moving. But when it stops, you cannot make just the way it is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also say, "That is also by nature."
Prabhupāda: What is that nature? Nature means an instrument. Instrument, there must be one player. Nature is instrument. Just like this is an instrument. It is not recording by itself. When you push the button, then it works. You cannot say that "It is working by nature."
Karandhara: They might say that by "nature" they mean it happens naturally. What's happening naturally, they mean it doesn't require anyone...
Prabhupāda: No, what things are happening naturally? Your father begets you, therefore you talk. Naturally you have not come. If your father would not begotten you through your mother, how did you come? Naturally your mother does not become pregnant. What things happening naturally?
Karandhara: No. By the father impregnating the mother, that is natural, naturally.
Prabhupāda: Why naturally? If father does not pregna... There are so many now "bachelor-daddies." Nothing can be took natural. Nature is an instrument.
Karandhara: Well, they say that some say that nothing was actually ever created, so there is no need for...
Prabhupāda: Everything is created. That is rascaldom. He is speaking. He is created by his father, the rascal who is talking like that. You were created by your father.
Karandhara: No, but essentially, he says, they are not created.
Prabhupāda: Why not created? I see that your mother became pregnant and you were created and you are... Why you say... Your natural... Your mother did not become naturally pregnant. Everything is created. This table is created. You cannot say that it has come naturally.
Karandhara: This form may be created or it exists at a certain state of time, but the energy is never created.
Prabhupāda: So that also we admit. That is another thing. But the... Therefore we have got two departments, the spiritual world and the material world. In the material world everything is created. In the spiritual world, not created. It is ever-existing. And anything which is created, that is annihilated.
Karandhara: The energy is not annihilated.
Prabhupāda: No. That we also accept. But that energy belongs to whom?
Karandhara: Well, they say that because it was never created, it doesn't have to be created.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This material world is created. That you cannot say, "It is not created." Everything we see in our front, everything is created.
Karandhara: Well, they say, "Nothing is created."
Prabhupāda: No. Created, in this sense, it is manifested.
Karandhara: In that sense. But that still isn't the creation of the energy itself.
Prabhupāda: That... What is that energy? That is spiritual energy. Therefore we divide material energy and spiritual energy. In the spiritual energy everything is manifested and non-manifested. And the spiritual energy, everything is ever-existing. Sanātana, sanātana. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Sanātana means ever-existing. There is another nature, but that is not this nature. That we admit.
Karandhara: But if this energy was never created, then what is the need for a creator?
Prabhupāda: No. We admit the energy is not created. But energy comes from the energetic. Energy. Just like you may become angry. So that anger energy is there in you, but it is not manifested. So there are certain energies which sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. So this energy, material energy, is of God. This energy is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But there is another energy which is eternal. That is spiritual world. That is our... This is scientific study. (break)
Prajāpati: They will say that such talk may be of use in a religious sphere, but it has no use ultimately in terms of science.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is useful because in scientific world also, you follow leader, Sir Isaac Newton, Professor Einstein. Why do you follow? There must be a leader.
Karandhara: Well, they just use the leaders as springboards. They don't accept them as absolute authorities.
Prabhupāda: No, it may be springboard, but you have to take their help. Because it is springboard, you cannot neglect. What do you think?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to take help.
Prajāpati: They feel great accomplishment when they can disprove something that these leaders are proposing.
Prabhupāda: No, if the leader is rascal, then it is accepted. But a leader required, that's a fact. But if you select a wrong leader, then you are misguided. But leader is required. Just like to get birth, there must be a father.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Leader is someone whose words can be accepted. A leader is someone, or a scientist, it doesn't matter, anybody, whose words are followed by...
Prabhupāda: Yes, authority. Leader means authority. His instruction is followed, and actually it happens. That is leader.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (break) ...scientific community. It changes so often...
Prabhupāda: Because they are not leader, perfect leader. With imperfect knowledge they become leader. Therefore we... Our process is to accept a leader who is perfect. That is our process. And the others, fools, they accept a leader who is not perfect. But either we or they, they must accept a leader. The only difference is that we accept the perfect leader and they accept the imperfect leader. Therefore they are cheated.
Prajāpati: They will not accept the conception of perfection. They say, "We do not accept this term perfection."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are fools, therefore they are fooled. Unless there is conception of perfection, why do you change leader? Why do you make revolution?
Prajāpati: The lesser of two evils.
Karandhara: They accept the conception, but they don't accept the reality of it.
Prabhupāda: No. Reality, because they do not know. They have been always been misguided by rascals. Therefore they cannot think of that there can be perfection. This is called skepticism. Because everyone is faulty, therefore there is no knowledge. This is skeptism. But real knowledge is that as I see this man is intelligent that man, that man is intelligent than that man, therefore there is an ideal intelligent man which we could not find. And that is God. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1).
Karandhara: Just like when they go and excavate a city under the ground, an old city, they see that so many things were built, and they say, "Oh, these people were very intelligent." Although they never saw the person, they saw the civilization in the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. By symptoms, by symptoms they can understand.
Karandhara: So they say, "Well, we cannot see God." But they could not see the people in those past days either.
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot see the government, but when things are going nicely, you must accept, there is government. That is... When things are going on very nicely, regularly, the sun is rising regularly, the moon is rising regularly, the seasons are changing and the waves are flowing, everything, then you have to accept that there is government. And as we have got experience here in this material world... Government is impersonal, but that at the end there is a president. Similarly, the whole government, the complete government, may be impersonal in the beginning, but at the end there is a person, that Supreme Person, Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Yes. Paramātmā is representative of God. Just like the president has got so many representative governors, similarly, Paramātmā is the localized representative of God, and God is person, and the whole government is impersonal. This is the conception. When we say "government," you cannot localize that "Who is that person, government?" That is impersonal. But when we find governor, then localized persons. And then above them, all of them, when there is president, he is supreme person. This is our practical example. Similarly, nature is working impersonally, but there are officers. They are called demigods. And above them all there is the Supreme Lord. He is Bhagavān. And this idea wherefrom has come? The president, the governors, and the government. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). It has come from there. Because of the origin, the same thing is there.
Prajāpati: They will say, Śrīla Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: They are rascals. They will say anything. (laughter) But this is the fact. When a madman speaks, he speaks all nonsense. But we are not madmen. We cannot accept their version. What they will say?