Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But even accepting that the soul is the living force, they may say that "Well, we're living in this material world and we have to deal with matter, so what is the importance of all this knowledge?"
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say that "We're living in the material world in spite of this knowledge, so we have to deal with material circumstances."
Prabhupāda: But you do not like to die. Why do you die with your material knowledge? Nobody wants to die but why you die? Then where is your material knowledge. You do not like to be old man. Where is your material knowledge that you can stop old age? Then you have to accept that your material knowledge is not perfect. Why you are so much proud of this false knowledge? Unnecessarily.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't see that you are able to stop death.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We agree that it would be nice to stop death, but where is...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, we know. You learn from us. We know. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is the process.
Bhavananda: But we haven't seen that anyone in your movement...
Prabhupāda: Again "seeing," condemned seeing. Your seeing is like that, that "The sun has come all of a sudden." That is your seeing. "And when the sun is not there, the sun dead." That is your seeing. This is rascal seeing, animal seeing.
Madhudviṣa: Then you want us to have faith.
Prabhupāda: No faith. It is knowledge.
Madhudviṣa: If I can't see, then it means faith.
Prabhupāda: No, you can't see. You are rascal; how you will see? Just like an astrologer can say it is going to happen. You cannot see, but he can see.
Madhudviṣa: That means I have to have faith, though.
Prabhupāda: It is not faith. It is fact. If I say that "At 6:30 in the evening there will be no sun," it is not faith; it is fact. But a rascal does not say... "No, why? The sun is there. Why there will be no sun?" But intelligent man will say, "No, there will be no sun." It is neither astrology, neither anything. It is knowledge. You have no knowledge; you do not know. I have knowledge; I can tell. That is the way.
Madhudviṣa: But I must believe that knowledge.
Prabhupāda: But you are rascal, "I believe." Learn how to believe it, how to see it.
Madhudviṣa: But I have another teacher who can teach me something I can see.
Prabhupāda: Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. If you have got knowledge, then you can see. But you have no knowledge. How you can see? Therefore you have to go to a person where you get the knowledge. Then you will see. Another example is that in the desert the animal is seeing there is water.
Guru-kṛpā: Mirage.
Prabhupāda: He is seeing. And the man knows that there is no water. That is the difference between animal and man. The animal cannot see. The man can see. So become a perfect man. Then you'll see everything.