Jayatīrtha: This is the preliminary outline for the college course that Dr. Judah is going to be helping us with in Berkeley. This describes the basic purposes of the college and describes some of the courses that we'll be offering.
Prabhupāda: Our books?
Jayatīrtha: Yes, there's a course in each book.
Bahulāśva: This is what Dr. Judah belongs to, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Bahulāśva: This is a union of various theological schools. So now in Berkeley we have this very nice building, and we can become a member of this Graduate Theological Union. I have been working with Dr. Judah for about one year, and we've talked about this before. And he said that he will sponsor us.
Prabhupāda: So I shall take it?
Bahulāśva: Yes, he said that he will sponsor us in this union, and then our devotees can study just your books. Maybe they must take an English course, and that would be all we couldn't offer. Then everything else, they can study from your books.
Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if they read my books, they will be benefited. There is no doubt about it.
Bahulāśva: Yes. Then they can get a degree recognized by the state of California so they can teach in universities all over the whole country.
Prabhupāda: That I want. Do it. We want to give degrees, at least B.A., M.A., and Ph.D., according to the advancement of knowledge. And that will be very much beneficial to your country. Then America will be saved from disaster and it will be the leader. The country will be leader of the whole world. Take this advantage.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are some questions about exactly how to do this college. We will be licensed by the state of California, that is no problem. We can get a license immediately.
Prabhupāda: Get it.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Get it, and the, what is called, syllabus, that we shall give. We have got so many books. We shall select this book for graduate, this book for post-graduate, and these books for Ph.D.'s.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Even you have different levels. Like they can undergraduately study Bhagavad-gītā, but in graduate they can study it more intensely, like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in general course they select some passages from some books. So we can do that.
Bahulāśva: Yes. We have laid out all your books in this style, just like at a college catalogue. This is all your literatures and then different courses are given there, what subject matter will be covered.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall make a program, and it may be approved by the professors, and then we will let them study.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's some questions here.
Prabhupāda: And there should be one practical examination, not only theoretical, but practical. This will be the chanting and following the regulative principles. (laughter) Otherwise it will not be successful. It will be successful. It will take some time. But if they take help of this practical life it will be very easily successful.
Bahulāśva: Not just reading the books but there also must be chanting and following the regulative principles.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will turn your America as Vaikuṇṭha. And that is your duty, to save your countrymen. I think the America is... The people were pious in their past life. They have got this opulent position. Now they should use this opulent position. They have no poverty. They haven't got to work so hard, and they take advantage of this knowledge. Other countries, they are poor. They are busy how to earn their livelihood. But your country, because you are favored on account of your previous pious activities, you should utilize this position. People are embarrassed for improving their economic condition in other countries. Of course, if one is cultured, he is not embarrassed in any condition of life. But without Kṛṣṇa culture, poverty-stricken people, they are very much hampered. So you have no such problem. Therefore you can utilize your position, this opulent position, for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As a learned scholar you should advocate this cause. Why should you waste your time in sense gratification? That is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs. Why this life? That is also... We have described in the Fifth Canto, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye SB 5.5.1 . For simply to satisfy the senses, why you should make such a gorgeous program for working? The sense gratification is enjoyed even by the hogs, the stool-eater. This particular animal is mentioned because they are gratifying senses without any discrimination. You will find the hogs eating stool, and they are with mothers and sister and have sex life, that's all. They have no discrimination. So this kind of sense gratification is there in the hog's life. So are the human beings to imitate the hog's life? This is the question. So they are imitating the hog's life, all the human being. This is the defect. Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye SB 5.5.1 . Working so hard day and night, and only sex, that's all. This is life's enjoyment? This is a hog's life. And what else they have got happiness? We challenge them, "Except this happiness of sex, what other happiness you have got?" There is no answer. So this is being done by the hogs. Whole day and night they are searching after, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon he gets the stool and they have sex, that's all. Is that civilization, hog's life? And what is civilization? That is tapo divyam: "Just undergo austerities for realizing God." That is civilization. Work very hard similarly, but for Kṛṣṇa and not for imitating the hogs. Now, why I should be interested in for God realization? Yes, you should be. You must be. Why? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva: SB 5.5.1 "By becoming Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your existentional constitution will be purified." What is that purification? Purīfication means because you are now impure, you are subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. Therefore you require treatment to cure this disease. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam. And if you cure this disease, then—you are after happiness—you will get transcendental bliss and enjoy it eternally. This is human life. Everything is discussed in the Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam SB 5.5.1 . Anantam means unlimited. You are searching after happiness, but this is limited. Even if you enjoy sex life, that is also limited for a few moments. But anantam. That is... You will enjoy it eternally. Just Kṛṣṇa is dancing with the gopīs. He is enjoying eternally. So you can join with Him. That information we are giving. Just imagine what a valuable service we are rendering. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva SB 5.5.1 . Your existence is impure. Therefore you are undergoing the tribulation of birth, death, old age, and disease. But they are not making any research how to stop. Nobody wants to die. Why he is dying? Where is the solution? Can the psychologists give any solution, that "You think in this way"? No. That we are giving: "Think of Kṛṣṇa and you will become free."
Jayatīrtha: Jaya. Yes.
Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti BG 4.9 . A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material, he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram BG 4.9 . She is not your servant, you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independence. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking how to correct them. Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is.
Dr. Gerson: That's what psychology's been trying to teach people: to do whatever they want to do because they have the power.
Prabhupāda: That's... But can he do anything as he likes?
Dr. Gerson: That's right.
Prabhupāda: If he... As he likes, if he infects some disease, he must suffer from the disease. Where is his independence? If you infect some disease, infectious disease, then you must suffer from the disease. That is nature's law. So where is your independence? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). It is all described. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Why there are so many varieties of life? Because he has associated with a particular type of modes of nature and he has got the body. Without any human sense he has learned to eat anything and everything, without any discrimination. Therefore nature will give the body of a pig. "All right, you eat anything up to stool. Up to stool you can eat." So how can you stop it? And because nature has given this body, he is relishing very good taste from stool. But this body, you cannot relish what is enjoyment in the stool. But because he has no discrimination of food, nature has given him, "All right, you can eat up to stool." Human life is meant for civilization, and they are trying to be naked. So next life will be: "All right, you remain naked standing as tree for five thousand years." How can you stop it? Wherefrom these varieties of life are coming? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). This is kāraṇam, that he is associating with different modes of material nature and he is getting a suitable body. So where is that science to understand this subtle work of nature? Where is that science? Where is that education in the universities? You are not free. You cannot say "that I shall live life like this." You can live, but take the risk of next life. Therefore they avoid this question: "There is no next life." That is very horrible. But that does not mean... Just like the, what is that animal? Closes the eyes?
Jayatīrtha: Ostrich.
Prabhupāda: Ostrich. When there is danger, it closes eyes: "No danger." But that does not mean no danger. The danger is there. You may close your eyes. This is going on. The whole education system is foolish. Because they are thinking independent.
Bahulāśva: Now we can change that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with this college. We can get our men in all religious departments.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our duty, to give them knowledge. The knowledge is there. The candidates are there. Only the guardians should be sane, that "Save the children." Otherwise they will produce only hippies. That's all. (break) So long you will work on the mental plane, then the tendency will be that "Let me refute you, and I become prominent." And he will think that "Let me refute him. I become." This business will go on. But there will be no end of philosophy. So what is the use of such philosophy, simply continually go on mentally speculating, no conclusion? Philosophy means, "Here is the conclusion."
Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. Dr. Judah said in our whole course we can just defeat them, but we must know what they think also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that's all right. That you should know. They are advertised as big philosophers, so at least we can prove that they are not big philosophers. The big philosopher is Kṛṣṇa.
Bahulāśva: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Bahulāśva: In Īśopaniṣad you say, "The self-sufficient philosophy. That is Kṛṣṇa."
Dharmādhyakṣa: Also, should this college have men and woman or just men?
Prabhupāda: No, why? Everyone. We have no such discrimination. But not cats and dogs. (laughter) Human being. Never mind what he is.
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Māyāpur you were speaking about you wanted Māyāpur to become a college for the University of Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: No, why Māyāpur? Everywhere. The whole educational system should be changed.
Bahulāśva: We should take it over.
Prabhupāda: Not changed. At least this will remain as a departmental knowledge.
Bahulāśva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible to make wholesale change, but at least let them accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a departmental knowledge.
Bahulāśva: We were wondering if Ravīndra-svārupa could come and help on this project. Because if we can get established in Berkeley first... It's such a big university.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that.
Bahulāśva: We could be respected everywhere else.
Prabhupāda: Do that. Whoever can help this.
Jayatīrtha: We need to have a certain number of Ph.D.'s, is it?
Bahulāśva: We need at least five.
Prabhupāda: Five Ph.D.'s?
Bahulāśva: Ph.D.'s to start.
Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got. We have got Ph.D.
Dharmādhyakṣa: We need five to be accredited. We don't need five to start, but to get accreditation.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. How many we have got?
Jayatīrtha: Ravīndra-svārupa is one, and Svarūpa Dāmodara is two.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ravīndra-svārupa is not yet a Ph.D.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh. How long? Another year yet.
Prabhupāda: They said, no, that they have got five, six Ph.D.'s
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mādhava.
Jayatīrtha: Richard. And Dr. Judah will be one?
Bahulāśva: If you like, Dr. Judah said he will help teaching in this?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Bahulāśva: You like, Dr. Judah said he will help?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If he appreciates our movement, then he can become.
Dharmādhyakṣa: So what we need, Prabhupāda, is whoever has an advanced degree to come to the college and to teach.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Like even Dāmodara here, prabhu. He has a master's degree.
Prabhupāda: He has already proposed that he wants to give up his service and fully work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Jayatīrtha: Svarūpa Dāmodara?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This... Just now we have received that letter. He doesn't like. He is now realizing, "What I am searching after, false thing?"
Devotees: Jaya!
Dharmādhyakṣa: If Svarūpa Dāmodara could come, that would be very good.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dharmādhyakṣa: This Dr. Gerson, he comes to āratik and he likes to chant and dance.
Prabhupāda: This doctor?
Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So convert him also to be a devotee. Then that is another PhD.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, yes. He said he would love to come and teach at our college.
Prabhupāda: Very good. But he must give up his bad habits, illicit sex, meat-eating. At least they must give up.
Dharmādhyakṣa: He is giving them up. He says that he is becoming more sensitive.
Prabhupāda: If he chants, then he is purified.
Dharmādhyakṣa: He realizes this. All his psychologist friends, they are just crazy. They are not solving any problem.
Prabhupāda: So that's all right. (end