Hayagrīva: Now this is the last point, and I want to just for the record to correct this on Śyāmasundara's presentation because you took exception to this, and I believe that it was..., you wouldn't take exception to it. I don't know. It says Bergson refers to the "essential function of the universe as being that of a machine for the making of gods."
Prabhupāda: That is his misconception. That I have explained, the wheel. The wheel is going on. The wheel has got different parts but it is resting on the axle.
Hayagrīva: No, but is the universe a machine for the making of gods in the sense that it's a vehicle to make people Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Prabhupāda: No, this is wrong. The machine, the wheel is already depending on the axle. Axle is already there. Without axle, the wheel cannot move.
Hayagrīva: Not for the creation of God, not for the making of God.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Hayagrīva: But for the making of small "g" gods, like demigods. You once said...
Prabhupāda: Demigods are already there. Just like in the same example, in the wheel the different parts, they are already there.
Hayagrīva: So there's no question of the making of gods?
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is a wrong theory.
Hayagrīva: But when a man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, could you say that he has become like a god or godlike?
Prabhupāda: He, that godlessness is diseased condition. So when he becomes in normal condition, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. His normal life is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is mukti. Mukti means liberation. What is that liberation? A man is suffering from fever. So if the fever is stopped by medicine and treatment, then he becomes in normal health. It does not mean that he, he changes his constitution. He is the same man, but on account of fever he was talking nonsense, in convul..., what is called, convulsion?
Hayagrīva: Convulsions.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hayagrīva: Delirium.
Prabhupāda: Delirium, yes. He is talking all nonsense, this diseased condition. So he has to cured from the diseased condition, then he will understand, "Oh, this is my position," brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54), he becomes immediately joyful, "Oh, I am talking in delirium, nonsense." This is...
Hayagrīva: So instead of a machine for the making of gods, it's more like a hospital for the curing of souls.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, it is hospital. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means curing the disease. That is described in Nārada-bhakti-sūtra, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170), nirmalam. Nirmalam means purified. So when he becomes free from all this designation... The designation begins with this body, and the body accidentally born in Europe, he thinks, "I am a European." Born in America, "I am an American." Born in a Christian family, "I am Christian." He is born in Hindu family, "I am that." That is all misconception. His real position is that "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, eternal servant." Then he is free from all. That is, that is beginning of..., that is brahma-bhūtaḥ, beginning of spiritual life. So nothing, not that a man can be made to God. He is not God; he is part and parcel of God. He has to simply understand his position. That is mukti. He is working under different impression, that "I am this body." Just like the other day with, concerning the philosopher Huxley. He is a philosopher but he is proud of becoming Englishman. Did you not say?
Hayagrīva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So this is going on. So-called philosophy, scientific advancement, but the central mistake is there that he is thinking in terms of his body. That has to be corrected. Then it will be pure consciousness and normal life.
Hayagrīva: Now let me get this right. He doesn't say that it's a machine for the making..., that man becomes... He's not saying that man becomes God. He never says that.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hayagrīva: But that a man may evolve to a state like unto the demigods. Is that a possibility?
Prabhupāda: What is demigod? That, there is a difference between demigod and a man. A demigod is in the better position, that's all. Just like a high-court judge and layman. Both of them human being, but the high-court judge in a better position, that's all, but both of them human being.
Hayagrīva: But that's not the purpose of the universe.
Prabhupāda: Everything is the... I am human being, you are human being, but you are in better position. So demigods, they are, on account of their higher qualities, they are in sattva-guṇa, and here raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So..., but as soon we are not subjected to any guṇa, either sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, we are transcendental. So if we keep ourselves in that transcendental position, that is engaged in devotional service, then we are above this all, sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. That is wanted. Then that is called mukti, muktir hitvānyathā rūpam. We are contaminated or conditioned on account of association with these three modes of material nature, and if we keep ourself aloof from the association of three modes then we are mukta, we are liberated. That is devotional service.
Hayagrīva: Higher, higher than the demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the demigods? They are also rotting in this material world. So devotees are not concerned how to become a demigod. They do not care. That is said by Prabodānanda Sarasvatī: vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate. Vidhi means Lord Brahmā, and mahendra means the king of heaven, Indra. So he says, "I think this Brahmā and Indra, Candra, the demigods just like as good as the germs and small insects." He says that. Vidhi-mahendrādiś. You have to attain such a position that you think this Brahmā and Indra and demigods, they are as good as the insects. Vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭa. Kīṭa means a small insect. So actually that is the position. Everyone has got a different type of body according to his karma, either Brahmā's body or ant's body, so he is under material laws. So that is not the position of freedom. One has to become above these material laws. That is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). So anyone who has actually attained that position, what is the importance of Brahmā's body or Indra's body? He is not concerned with the body, just, therefore devotees are not interested to be elevated to the higher planetary system in the heaven. They are not interested. They are interested going back to home, back to Godhead. So devotee's position is different. Just like we can see practically our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have got so many members. We are not perfect, but still it is not our ambition how to become a Rockefeller or big rich man. This is not our ambition. Is it our ambition, like that? We don't care for this Rockefeller or big, big man. We want how to become a perfect devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You can see practically. Our endeavors, activities, are not like the karmīs'. The karmīs are trying "How many motorcars I will possess. How many buildings I shall possess." We do not mind, but we are constructing temples. That is for Kṛṣṇa's service. We are getting money by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You are envious of that money for Kṛṣṇa's service. Not to that to make a big bank balance and declare that "Now I have become as good as Rockefeller," or this or that. We are not interested. So a devotee is not at all interested to be promoted in the higher planetary system or become demigod. That is not their business. Kīṭa janma hau yathā tuyā dāsa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says that bahir-mukha brahma-janme nāhi mora āśa, "I don't care to become a Brahmā, I, better I shall prepare to become a small ant in the house of a devotee." This is our ambition. I shall be very much satisfied remaining a small ant in the house of a devotee, a dog of a devotee, but I don't want, forgetting Kṛṣṇa, to become like Brahmā, Indra, Candra. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy.